What is with Hillary Clinton what is she doing?

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_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: What is with Hillary Clinton what is she doing?

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

https://mobile.Twitter.com/Billbrowder/ ... 1295415297

Bill Browder

@Billbrowder

Tulsi Gabbard say that she doesn’t control the Russian bots that support her, but she did control the hiring of Chris Cooper, the smear campaigner who was paid by Natalia Veselnitskaya and her Russian backed sponsors to smear me and try to repeal the Magnitsky Act in DC


Eta: https://mobile.Twitter.com/cbouzy/statu ... 6770533381

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Dr Exiled
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Re: What is with Hillary Clinton what is she doing?

Post by _Dr Exiled »

honorentheos wrote:
Exiled wrote:It's your burden, Honor.

What's my burden? We were talking about how a person would be able to differentiate between someone who independently came to the conclusion the Russian investigation was a hoax and someone who was being manipulated by Russian propaganda. And you are asserting things. I asked if you wouldn't mind showing how you took on any prior anti-Clinton biases you might have had in order to be the example of such a person, and you say it's my job to prove to you that there was Russian interference. Maybe if this were a discussion with someone who hasn't been debating this on this board and had all sorts of information shared with them. But that's not you.

How'd you address your biases to be sure you weren't just letting sources that confirmed your biases through and dismissing those that challenged them?


How does anyone know they aren't riddled with biases regarding anything? How do you know your opinions aren't so infected that you cannot independently arrive at conclusions? Are you saying that no one can independently think, or are you exempt? Perhaps Hillary? In a world where everyone is infected with bias, who comes up with the original thoughts? God?
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 
_Dr Exiled
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Re: What is with Hillary Clinton what is she doing?

Post by _Dr Exiled »

Regarding burden, I am assuming you are attempting to explore bias as an attempt to avoid the lack of proof for Clinton's latest russian conspiracy theory. Do you agree with EA that it's just obvious about the russians and everyone should somehow know it? Of course my thinking could be affected by the russians, but so could all of our thinking, including Clinton's and her mainstream media allies. Given this, what is one to do?
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 
_honorentheos
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Re: What is with Hillary Clinton what is she doing?

Post by _honorentheos »

Exiled wrote:How does anyone know they aren't riddled with biases regarding anything?

They ought to realize they are, because we all are. The starting point for beginning to think critically about something demands first confronting this reality.

How do you know your opinions aren't so infected that you cannot independently arrive at conclusions? Are you saying that no one can independently think,

If I thought I was exempt, I'd be a fool. Am I saying no one can think independently? Well, what would that even look like? How is it even possible to be independent of the preconceptions, biases, and cultural background that informs the way one approaches a question?

It's not about being independent. It's about recognizing we aren't, so one approaches issues with that recognition from the outset. If I don't acknowledge I'm biased when I approach a subject, I'll never be able to claim I was even attempting to think independently. The best one can do is approach an issue from the perspective of a person with this opposing view and try to genuinely see it the way they do. And that requires extending good faith their way and looking at their arguments with enough of an open mind that one can see where they are honestly coming from rather than the strawman foundations we are most inclined to attribute to those who think differently.

My impression is you are making the claim for independent thinking based on belief you are outside of the pocket of an establishment source for information. That being the equivalent of being outside of the LDS church's influence like the world operates in that manner. There's inside and outside, sheeple and self-realized people. But that's basically being oblivious to the pocket you ARE in. Any time spent in reading up on human psychology should expose a person to the nature of bias in our behavior and thinking. Any class on critical thinking ought to have laid out the need to approach information from multiple sources with competing views for good reason. It's not something I'm tossing out there to try and defend an argument on the internet.

In a world where everyone is infected with bias, who comes up with the original thoughts?
Anyone can come up with original thoughts. The issue is how reliable they are and how one goes about holding them up to whatever dim light one has available to examine in a world where biases are the norm, information is slanted, we are imperfect receivers of imperfectly transmitted information, and anything that appears true today could be overturned by new evidence tomorrow.

Believing oneself to be independent and somehow privileged with access to the right information while everyone else is stuck under the thumb of some manipulative authority is juvenile. Literally. It's how adolescents view the world. "Mom, dad and everyone in charge are fuck-ups, and I'm going off to be my own person and show them how things should be done because I'm independent." At some point, reality is supposed to chip off the edges of that and instill an understanding the world isn't binary, there aren't easy obvious answers, and most people have good reasons for doing what they do even if it's not what we wish they did. Kids figure out their parents were well-meaning, probably right to some degree, and doing the best they could under difficult circumstances the kid was making harder by being a know-it-all dope. People graduate from college and find out the real world looks different than their professors told them it should be, not because everyone is out to “F” everyone else over, but because idealism works in a classroom and only in a classroom.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_honorentheos
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Re: What is with Hillary Clinton what is she doing?

Post by _honorentheos »

Exiled wrote:Regarding burden, I am assuming you are attempting to explore bias as an attempt to avoid the lack of proof for Clinton's latest russian conspiracy theory.

I brought it up because your comment earlier about there being a hypothetical independent thinker who arrived at the conclusion the Russia investigation was a hoax and did so independently of Russian propaganda intended to sell the investigation as a hoax seemed unlikely to me. So far, you haven't presented anything that justifies rethinking that.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_honorentheos
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Re: What is with Hillary Clinton what is she doing?

Post by _honorentheos »

Here's an interesting article that predates Clinton's comments:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/12/us/p ... bbard.html

It's worth reading as it contextualizes the concerns before they were charged with the extreme reactions people have towards Hillary.
The world is always full of the sound of waves..but who knows the heart of the sea, a hundred feet down? Who knows it's depth?
~ Eiji Yoshikawa
_canpakes
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Re: What is with Hillary Clinton what is she doing?

Post by _canpakes »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:To be fair, I just think Gabbard is positioning herself for a Senate run. I think she wants the seat where Senator Schatz* currently sits through 2022 (<-?). But I'm just, you know, trying to figure her out. Incidentally, she won the Congressional seat vacated (?) by Senator Hirono so who knows.

* I get the feeling Gabbard isn't super hot on Israel's influence in the world. I dunno. I have a sort of niggling feeling about her and the Jewish superinfluence in American politics. I don't know if this is a driving motivation to get Schatz out of office, but it's certainly something that's pinging on my radar.

- Doc

A couple of years back I posted that she’d be an interesting candidate. I was intrigued by her atypical mix of views coupled with her military experience.

Regardless of other issues mentioned here by Honor and EA, she has - in recent months - exhibited an unfortunate tendency to whine about the debate process and nomination mechanism as being tilted against her, in a conspiratorial way. We get enough of that sort of paranoid and angry complaining from the current Prez; I’m not seeing a need to support that sort of thinking via any other replacement option.
_Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: What is with Hillary Clinton what is she doing?

Post by _Doctor CamNC4Me »

canpakes wrote:We get enough of that sort of paranoid and angry complaining from the current Prez; I’m not seeing a need to support that sort of thinking via any other replacement option.


Yeah. She feels like an opportunist; perhaps that's why Clinton dislikes her so much. Ha.

Image

- Doc
In the face of madness, rationality has no power - Xiao Wang, US historiographer, 2287 AD.

Every record...falsified, every book rewritten...every statue...has been renamed or torn down, every date...altered...the process is continuing...minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Ideology is always right.
_Jersey Girl
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Re: What is with Hillary Clinton what is she doing?

Post by _Jersey Girl »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:A hot take from Reddit:

SNIP

Tl;dr - Gabbard is a DINO (Democrat in name only) who couldn't get elected in Hawaii without being a registered Dem. She comes from a political family and is considered too Trump friendly by Dems based on her historical behavior.

Doc Cam's hot take:

She's more or less a centrist, which makes her a Nazi to most Dems these days. I've never been big on her, mostly because she's a non-starter for a Presidential run. Supporting her would be akin to supporting any of the other candidates who are polling at or around 1%. Even as I say that I feel hypocritical because I like Mayor Pete and would vote for him in a NY second.

- Doc

Okay so I didn't know she was polling at 1%, the details of her election in Hawaii, and I don't think I knew anything about Jill Stein. If I did, I don't recall it. I tend to "delete" information when it no long seems useful or relevant but I guess in this case it would've been both. I did know about the issue of splitting the votes.

I thought Clinton's allegations were weird. Now I see that they aren't completely off base. Also, I was taken aback by Gabbard's attack on Clinton. Although I thought it was a strongly worded attack and I do tend to like forceful people who tell it straight up, it still seemed too down and dirty to me. I didn't like it.

I read the whole thing by the way.

As to Mayor Pete, so far I really like him. I don't think he has a snowball's chance in hell of becoming the Dem candidate but I do still like him. He comes off as informed, direct, well spoken and self assured. Folks say he was too aggressive in the 4th debate but of what I saw (I still never viewed the entire debate, only the last 3rd I'd say when it was happening, then some highlights) I think he was appropriate enough and I particularly appreciated his challenging Warren for having no plan for how to fund health care because I sit here wondering about that and she never addresses the elephant in the room though I hear she's working on her plan for funding which you'd think would be raising taxes. I hate politicians and the way the dance around stuff.

Thanks for all the work you did making several posts here. I'll probably not get to them all for response. But I have read all of the replies on this thread as of this writing and learned from them.

by the way, the phrase is not--> "in a NY second". Why? Because the phrase is "in a NY minute". Why? Because a NY minute IS a second. yw. ;-)
Failure is not falling down but refusing to get up.
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_Dr Exiled
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Re: What is with Hillary Clinton what is she doing?

Post by _Dr Exiled »

honorentheos wrote:
Exiled wrote:Regarding burden, I am assuming you are attempting to explore bias as an attempt to avoid the lack of proof for Clinton's latest russian conspiracy theory.

I brought it up because your comment earlier about there being a hypothetical independent thinker who arrived at the conclusion the Russia investigation was a hoax and did so independently of Russian propaganda intended to sell the investigation as a hoax seemed unlikely to me. So far, you haven't presented anything that justifies rethinking that.

Don't you think a lack of proof is enough to justify a conclusion that a given conspiracy theory is a hoax or at least delusional? Further, I had long conversations with Clinton operatives on election night 2016 where they gave me their initial conclusions that Clinton lost because of Comey's last minute about face on the email scandal Trump pushed. Soon after, though, the campaign came up with another Russian excuse because it didn't want to bring up the emails.

So, my "proof" is actually the lack of proof by those to whom the burden lies.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 
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