The disintegration of American democracy thread

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_EAllusion
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The disintegration of American democracy thread

Post by _EAllusion »

This is the thread in which we watch American democracy fall into ruin.
_EAllusion
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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

Post by _EAllusion »

I'll start by posting a few recent comments from Ezra Klein that I think are on point:

Donald Trump is brazen and crude. His abuses are blatant. His henchmen are largely clowns. His underlings are turning on him. He is the easiest possible test case for can our system hold a president accountable. And we are failing, because Republicans are failing. Lindsey Graham’s comments today [Nov 5th] should make you think one thing: it can happen here. Arguably, it is happening here, right now. Ambition was supposed to check ambition. But now ambition *protects* ambition. Parties cooperate across branches.

Americans have long believed we designed a form of government that protects us from the authoritarians and corruption that destroys so many other systems. What we’re seeing now is we haven’t. Or if we did, we've lost it. Imagine a president with Trump’s will to abuse power but a moderate level of strategic sense and savvy. A president who picked capable staff and rewarded loyalists. A president who knew what not to say, and when not to say it, to get his way. What defense do we have against them? Party loyalty creates vast zones in which corruption and abuse fester unchecked. That corruption and abuse can increase the party’s power — as Trump sought to do here —and further weaken oversight, as the out-party never has the strength to exercise it. Forget our myths and stories. Look at what is happening in front of us. If we saw this in another country, we would see where it was, eventually, going to lead.

We are not special. There is no magic to our structure. Our system, in its modern form, depends on parties to sometimes put the country's interest before their own. If they don't, corruption will consume us. And in today's Republican Party, we are seeing how, and why.
_EAllusion
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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

Post by _EAllusion »

Trump or no Trump, I think there is a very good chance America is fully consumed by an authoritarian party in the not too distant future. The institutional checks do not exist to stop it. Without institutional checks, it's only a matter of time before authoritarians capture democratic processes and use them to subvert the system itself. We've watched it happen recently several times over around the globe. There's no reason to think it cannot and is not happening here. Whatever guardrails existed, if only because people imagined they exist, we've already got a situation demonstrating they do not.

It will be serendipity if meaningful checks are put back in place before the system is able to be taken advantage of by people in a proto-authoritarian political organization that exists right now and wields massive power. We're probably screwed.
_ajax18
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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

Post by _ajax18 »

If by "the disintegration of American democracy," you mean overturning the results of a democratic election, than I would agree that American democracy is disintegrating. Like I said before, if any future president's party loses control of the House of Representatives, he will be impeached. That's where we're at in partisan sleezy Chicago style politics. That's the precedent we're setting. Is this because the vice president is such a great alternative for the impeaching party? No, but it sure helps to obstruct the agenda of the current regime either way. How does anything else get done in this type of cold civil war situation?

There are no high crimes nor misdemeanors. You've wanted to impeach this president before he ever took the oath of office because you disagree with his politics and nothing more.

The fact that you guys have hated and continue to hate Trump so much gives me more and more confidence he's doing his job right. I don't even follow anything else. I can see it all right here at Mormondiscussions.

I'd propose a peaceful nonviolent secession into separate countries. Why can't that be an option? Do we need each other militarily? I don't think we do anymore.
Last edited by ICCrawler - ICjobs on Sat Nov 09, 2019 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
And when the confederates saw Jackson standing fearless as a stone wall the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
_Maksutov
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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

Post by _Maksutov »

ajax18 wrote:If by "the disintegration of American democracy," you mean overturning the results of a democratic election, than I would agree that American democracy is disintegrating.

There are no high crimes nor misdemeanors. You've wanted to impeach this president before he ever took the oath of office because you disagree with his politics and nothing more.



First a manipulative dishonest attempt at reframing the discussion.

Then two lies in swift succession.

I would say that this thread is unfolding perfectly as per the subject. :cool:
"God" is the original deus ex machina. --Maksutov
_EAllusion
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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

Post by _EAllusion »

ajax18 wrote:If by "the disintegration of American democracy," you mean overturning the results of a democratic election,


Why does impeachment exist in the Constitution if actually impeaching someone is by default bad?

That's where we're at in partisan sleezy Chicago style politics. That's the precedent we're setting.


The President is very likely to be saved by the Senate Ajax. Relax. But, extorting a foreign power so they will manufacture a scandal about your political opponent is bad. Very bad. As are a few other dozen things we could talk about in a different thread. Perhaps you should go there instead.
_Dr Exiled
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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

Post by _Dr Exiled »

You're so conspiratorial EA. 4 chan for democrats anyone?What's your proof of this supposed authoritarianism that is going to force us into some sort of fascist government? Is it just presumed like you claimed it was with Clinton's utterly baseless Russian puppet claims she recently made? If it is true as you claim, how do we deal with it? Should a democratic party force come in and bring the very authoritarianism you supposedly hate to stop the Trump authoritarianism? How about we deal with the issues people want, get a people's candidate, sware off of corporate money and vote out this Trump clown in 2020? Voter turnout should easily beat Trump, if the democrat super delegates can go against their corporate donors.
"Religion is about providing human community in the guise of solving problems that don’t exist or failing to solve problems that do and seeking to reconcile these contradictions and conceal the failures in bogus explanations otherwise known as theology." - Kishkumen 
_huckelberry
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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

Post by _huckelberry »

Exiled wrote:You're so conspiratorial EAllusion. 4 chan for democrats anyone?What's your proof of this supposed authoritarianism that is going to force us into some sort of fascist government? Is it just presumed like you claimed it was with Clinton's utterly baseless Russian puppet claims she recently made? If it is true as you claim, how do we deal with it? Should a democratic party force come in and bring the very authoritarianism you supposedly hate to stop the Trump authoritarianism? How about we deal with the issues people want, get a people's candidate, sware off of corporate money and vote out this Trump clown in 2020? Voter turnout should easily beat Trump, if the democrat super delegates can go against their corporate donors.


Exilded, Corporations are a large and important reality of America or the larger industrial world. Are you sure it is a good idea to avoid their money and influence? (aside from the consideration that that cannot happen no matter how long one pouts about it)
_Dr. Shades
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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

Post by _Dr. Shades »

EAllusion wrote:Trump or no Trump, I think there is a very good chance America is fully consumed by an authoritarian party in the not too distant future.

Does this mean that you would vote for a third party candidate?
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_moksha
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Re: The disintegration of American democracy thread

Post by _moksha »

ajax18 wrote:I'd propose a peaceful nonviolent secession into separate countries. Why can't that be an option? Do we need each other militarily? I don't think we do anymore.

I imagine you would have favored the Confederacy joining the Axis powers in World War II. Today, the New Confederacy would have to be content with joining Russia, Syria, and North Korea.
Cry Heaven and let loose the Penguins of Peace
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