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Since the other thread is political but so far mostly spoiler-free, I thought I'd start a thread on the new Star Wars that is not spoiler-free.

Shades, be warned. From here there be spoilers.

Begin spoiler gap....

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Good enough spoiler gap.

Since anyone reading this has either seen the movie or doesn't care if it gets discussed in detail before they go to see it, I say out of the gate I hated most of it with a few redeeming bits here and there to not say I loathed it complete. Above all else, it was clearly a movie written as a reaction to the last movie rather than one that built a story off of The Last Jedi. Granted, I didn't like The Last Jedi as I found the the Space Balls-esque "Can you hear me now?" joke followed by an impossible-to-accept act of piloting and insubordination at the beginning colored the rest of the movie. Everything that followed just seemed intent on damned with Star Wars to me so it was not a particularly good Star Wars movie in my opinion if maybe a decent anti-Star Wars movie had it been put out as such.

Now that they are done, all three of the final trilogy are worse movies for how this movie resolved the overall story arc. It is impossible to watch them and not see how hard they worked to NOT be the movie(s) that came before them. The Force Awakens is now best seen as the anti-prequels movie. The Last Jedi is the anti-The Force Awakens/nostalgia movie. And the trilogy ends with the Rise of Skywalker tripping all over itself to erase The Last Jedi. I was close to leaving this last movie at one point because everything happening seemed to move at the pace it takes to read the following:

1) Insert thing that happened in The Last Jedi that some people hated.
2) Brush it off.
3) Insert action sequence.
4) Move to next thing that happened in The Last Jedi that some people hated and repeat 2 through 4.

Before I complain too much, the scenes with Kylo Ren and Rey and their unusual relationship was the one thing I felt salvaged this movie. Their acting together was the only actual acting in the movie and for whatever reason it worked for what it was. It left me wishing J.J. Abrams had been given all three movies and allowed to actually do some character development or story development that might have allowed the final movie to have something happen that an audience member could care about. The Last Jedi had many interesting ideas and unusually visual choices that suggest had they left Rian Johnson to play in a different, uniquely his Star Wars sandbox removed from the core trilogies, we'd all have ended up happier. He wouldn't be poison to the franchise while Abrams may have actually made two movies that developed ideas from what came before them instead.

Back to Rise of Skywalker. Way, WAY too many things happened that involved people making decisions that would alter their life's trajectory significantly for no other reason than it needed to happen to carry the movie forward. I hated it every. single. time it happened which I can't count right now. From Kylo Ren rushing off to kill Palpatine because the crawl told us that is what he'd do, to the alien passing on spycraft messages to Po as Tie Fighters swarmed the Millennium Falcon resulting in his/her head being tossed on to a table in front of Kylo Ren, to Rey rushing off to find and stop Palpatine regardless of Leia's feelings, to Keri Russell's character Zorii almost killing Po and telling him she's still digging out of the hole he left her in, to almost immediately turn around and give him the one thing she had that would allow her to get off the planet and start a new life (and then get off the planet later because “F” continuity she needed to be in the final battle), to the...ugh.

Don't like Kylo Ren not having a mask? Getting his mask back on his face was the first order of business of the movie.
Don't like that Snoke was killed off without ever explaining who he was? Don't worry. He was actually a creation of the Emperor Palpatine being puppeteered all along. You even get to see a Snoke-in-a-vat to make sure there is no ambiguity as to what that means.
Don't like that Rey was the child of nobodies? Don't worry. She's actually a SPOILER Palpatine.
Don't like Rose Tico? Don't worry. She has to sit this movie out studying ship blue prints for when the last action sequence happens. But don't worry. She'll have two lines in that at most. And they make it plenty clear Finn only has eyes for Rey.
Don't like weaponizing hyperdrives on ships? Don't worry, it's mentioned and dismissed as a one-in-a-million strategy that almost never works. Oh, and the Falcon used it to hyper jump out of complex mazes of terrain multiple times in a row clearly showing a ship at hyperspeed bypasses matter.
Don't like Luke tossing his lightsaber away? Don't worry. He'll stop Rey from doing the exact same thing and tell her a Jedi's weapon should be treated with more respect...

Etc., etc., etc.

I started and then stopped internally noting all the Chekov's "blanks" in the movie after it became apparent if the director took the time to put something in a scene, it was a Chekov's gun. The worst one to me was the rope on a speeder that stood out for being one of the only items on the speeder that wasn't a vague blobby thing and clearly sitting in proximity to a character. Why a rope on a speeder? Ah, Chekov's gun needed to stop pursuing stormtroopers riding vehicles whose only purpose was to add an action figure vehicle to the Star Wars fan's Christmas list when the environment the scene occurred in was made for speeder bikes. Abrams and co. were so rushed getting through erasing all the things they wanted to erase they only had time to include details where those details were needed for the story or could become merch. I do appreciate it leading to what I thought of as a Chekov's snake, though. Heavy-handed as it was, I like the phrase.

Plot point by plot point, the movie seemed rushed and moved by convenience. Hux being a spy for the rebellion, not because he wanted them to win but because he wanted Kylo Ren to lose could make sense in the arc of the previous movies but boy was it executed so poorly it stood out in a list of poorly executed, rushed plot points. No need to wonder how long they spent writing the script for the movie compared to filming it. What's more of a wonder is if they actually had a scripted story at all or just started shooting. It would explain decisions like, "We need to have Hux reveal he's the spy referenced at the start of the movie whose McGuffin gets everyone to Exegol, save the captured Chewie and co., and then disappear. So what to do with him?" "Shoot him?" "Of course. Shoot him. Alright, places and..."

I'll stop with that and recap that I wish they had put some more effort into developing the story with Rey and Kylo Ren. And I actually appreciated the scene with Han Solo, and that I hadn't heard Harrison Ford would be in the movie. With better writing and having played it out over two films, they could have made both Rey and Kylo Ren a reasonably coherent, different take on the story arc of the original trilogy that finally did bring balance to the force. Instead, we have three movies that only make sense as negative reactions to the movie that preceded them last in the filming of the trilogy. And the franchise is worse off for it even if it may have protected the nostalgia factor for old-time fans and will certainly boost sales to the Disneyland Galaxy's Edge or whatever it's called.

ETA: Looked it up, and it's called Galaxy's Edge.

honorentheos wrote:Getting his mask back on his face was the first order of business of the movie.

No pun intended?

It'll be hard to follow that detailed post, but what the heck:

I agree with many others that this movie was so fast-paced that it should've been two movies and not one. Your idea that "The Last Jedi" shouldn't have existed and that "The Rise of Skywalker" should've been both shows rings true.

Here are plot holes I noticed; maybe you know the answers:

1. If the planet-killing star destroyers were stuck on Exegol, how was one able to reach the planet on which Poe's love interest resided? Also, how was another one able to be in orbit around Endor, and how was a third one able to be in the space above Jakku?
2. If one of those star destroyers was able to, uh, destroy Poe's aforementioned-original planet, how was his love interest still alive to join in on the last battle?
3. If Tie Fighters were "short range," as revealed by Obi-Wan Kenobi in "A New Hope," how was Kylo Ren able to pilot one from the wreckage of the second Death Star all the way to Exegol?
4. How is an armada of star destroyers, along with their accompanying crew, built and fully staffed on a hidden planet that nobody can find?

And this is more of a question than a plot hole, but who were all those audience members when Palpatine attempts to perform the final ritual?

All of that said, just like how Han Solo got his own standalone movie, I would REALLY love to see a standalone Kylo Ren movie. A prequel to the postquels, if you will.

Dr. Shades wrote:

honorentheos wrote:Getting his mask back on his face was the first order of business of the movie.

No pun intended?

Call it a happy accident. :)

I agree with many others that this movie was so fast-paced that it should've been two movies and not one. Your idea that "The Last Jedi" shouldn't have existed and that "The Rise of Skywalker" should've been both shows rings true.

I went to see the movie opening weekend to avoid spoilers as I knew a number of people we'd be visiting with over the holidays would have seen it and want to talk about it. I also didn't watch any of the trailers. It was the last Star Wars main story movie, I was going to watch it, it wasn't likely to be made better by seeing hints of what was to come. I had heard Palpatine was going to be in it, so that wasn't a surprise but otherwise I went in curious to see what Abrams did with the twists it seemed Johnson had dealt him.

I should clarify that my complaint about The Last Jedi isn't that it shouldn't have been made. It wasn't my favorite movie by any stretch of the imagination but since it was essentially canon, I would have preferred that Abrams figured out how to take it and use it to finish the story. Deciding he would erase it and make Rise of Skywalker cover too much ground for a single movie to do that made it worse rather than better.

The result affected more than just this movie, it turned the final three movies into little more than reactions to previous movies. Like amateurs trying to learn improv, Abrams and Johnson couldn't take what was given to them and work with it but instead approached the handoff between movies with a, "That's not what happened, HERE'S WHAT REALLY HAPPENED!" The means The Force Awakens was lessened as well, making it the nostalgia play The Last Jedi rejected with prejudice. Abrams and Johnson should not have worked on this project is the main take away as they had competing visions and were unable to create a cohesive whole out of their differing approaches. It's too bad, because I think there were good movies in both visions had they either been better at collaborating or simply stayed in their own sandboxes. That places a large portion of the blame squarely on Disney for managing the property the way they have so it's fitting they've damaged something so expensive in attempting to turn a quick buck. Oh well.

Here are plot holes I noticed; maybe you know the answers:

If the planet-killing star destroyers were stuck on Exegol, how was one able to reach the planet on which Poe's love interest resided? Also, how was another one able to be in orbit around Endor, and how was a third one able to be in the space above Jakku?

I was surprised they were all hanging out at Exegol, To be honest. At some point someone said they had 16 hours before the Final Order started destroying planets and I imagined that meant the planet killer star destroyers were all moving into positions around the galaxy as they spoke. Those scenes all made sense to me only to leave me wondering why they were mostly bunched up waiting to take off en masse. That didn't make sense to me at all other than it made it easy to have a McGuffin target on Exegol besides Palpatine.

If one of those star destroyers was able to, uh, destroy Poe's aforementioned-original planet, how was his love interest still alive to join in on the last battle?

Yeah. As I mentioned above, it seemed like she needed the coin that she gave to Po to be able to get off planet, too. So her showing up in the final battle made about as much sense as all of the Avengers walking out of portals at the same time in Endgame for the final show down in that movie, too. (Dr. Strange didn't have the time gem so he wasn't able to rush around, find everyone and portal them into place in the time that elapsed...just for the person who went, BUT BUT!!!) It made for good??? cinema I guess so who needs continuity.

If Tie Fighters were "short range," as revealed by Obi-Wan Kenobi in "A New Hope," how was Kylo Ren able to pilot one from the wreckage of the second Death Star all the way to Exegol?

Good question. I didn't notice that detail and have no idea. If it was a normal Tie Fighter and not Vader's special fighter then that seems like another continuity shrug.

How is an armada of star destroyers, along with their accompanying crew, built and fully staffed on a hidden planet that nobody can find?

Good question.

And this is more of a question than a plot hole, but who were all those audience members when Palpatine attempts to perform the final ritual?

I assumed they were supposed to be the force ghosts of the past Sith that he described as joining when Rey killed him and she took on their essence of however that was supposed to work. But that was just my assumption, I haven't heard or read anything about it. So I guess that's another good question.

All of that said, just like how Han Solo got his own standalone movie, I would REALLY love to see a standalone Kylo Ren movie. A prequel to the postquels, if you will.

I like Adam Driver as an actor, but to be honest I liked him best in these movies when he and Daisey Ridley were together. The Han Solo movie wasn't high up on my list, either.

The Star Wars movies would have done well to not try and explain things and let fans chew their own cheeks more. Midiclorians and the force, the Kessel Run and parsecs, how Han won the Falcon from Lando…these were better left to the imagination in the end. I think Kylo Ren's backstory would fall into that same category.

I agree that it was a reaction-to-a-reaction and had way to much crammed in. It seemed clear that J.J. Abrams basically stuffed his version of the last two movies into the last one. But on the other hand, I appreciate that it finally revealed who the antagonist was and established an overall plot. The series was already broken, and this third movie fixed it, more or less.

There was one really subtle "fix" to a prior movie that was necessary and that I really liked. At the end of A New Hope, Luke and Hans got medals, but Chewy did not. What kind of discrimination against wookies was that? At the very end of this one when they were celebrating at the end, they take about 4 seconds to show Maz Kanata subtly handing a medal to Chewy. Fixing that one cosmic injustice from the original movie completely redeemed the whole thing for me.

So, now that we know Rey is a Palpatine, does that lessen the Mary Sue'ness of her character for anyone? Was Mr. Sith force-enhancing her all along?

Not that this saves the series for me. I paid to see Rogue One, and have subsequently watched the movie half a dozen times because, imho, it ranks up there with the original trilogy, but the prequels and sequels can go “F” themselves. They're all on the same level as seasons 7 and 8 of GoT, just absolutely decimating the lore of the entire story for me.

- Doc

I really didn't like it at all.

Too many dumb things that made me say to myself, "Really?"

Nothing crazy like bombs dropped from space like in the previous one, but you do have to wonder how you can take anyone's death seriously when they can just miraculously reappear after being killed (Palpatine). And how is it that the evil side always has these resources to come up with the most ridiculous things?

With a wave of his hand Palpatine creates hundreds of Star Destroyers, each equipped with firepower equivalent to the Death Star. You know, that moon sized space ship that took an undisclosed number of decades to build. Apparently Palpatine can just wave his hand using the Dark Side and boom, we have hundreds of ships rising out of the ground of all places, fully functional with thousands of trained personnel occupying each one.

And what's with KR needing a friggin helmet all the time? The only reason Darth Vader had a special helmet was because he needed it to breath.

And while the script wasn't identical to New Hope or the Force Awakens, it was very similar.

And why is it so difficult for KR to figure out who the spy is when it turns out to be someone he is in regular contact with and who has developed no defense mechanism via the force?

Luke finally comes out with it and says blood doesn't matter that much after all. Really? So what was all that business about the metachlorians (sp?) in Phantom Menace?

Why are both KR and Rey able to use the force to bring people back to life with absolutely no training when Darth Vader couldn't accomplish this?

Icarus wrote:Too many dumb things that made me say to myself, "Really?"

That probably covers all that needs said.

Analytics wrote:I agree that it was a reaction-to-a-reaction and had way to much crammed in. It seemed clear that J.J. Abrams basically stuffed his version of the last two movies into the last one. But on the other hand, I appreciate that it finally revealed who the antagonist was and established an overall plot. The series was already broken, and this third movie fixed it, more or less.

There was one really subtle "fix" to a prior movie that was necessary and that I really liked. At the end of A New Hope, Luke and Hans got medals, but Chewy did not. What kind of discrimination against wookies was that? At the very end of this one when they were celebrating at the end, they take about 4 seconds to show Maz Kanata subtly handing a medal to Chewy. Fixing that one cosmic injustice from the original movie completely redeemed the whole thing for me.

It's probably true that for all it's faults, Rise of Skywalker did put a bow on the story. It was a hastily undone and retied bow, but nonetheless credit where it's due I guess.

I saw something online today regarding the medal and Chewie. I admit, it wasn't on my mind while watching this movie. I just thought it was something of Hans and figured it probably meant something to someone but didn't recognize it or contextualize it in the moment. A nice gesture. But it also strikes me as one more "fix" that was done so blatantly to appease a fan base's needs I don't know if it's a feel good moment or the gesture should be taken cynically. Having come of age in the nineties, cynicism is winning at the moment.

Icarus wrote:Why are both KR and Rey able to use the force to bring people back to life with absolutely no training when Darth Vader couldn't accomplish this?

Because the former two used their natural hands, whereas Darth Vader's hands were mechanical?

I took my son to this movie last night. I would comment further but I fell asleep a little after the palpatine character started to electrocute the girl and the reformed villain character. I guess the beer I was drinking was too strong. Thank god for uber.

I will try not to be obnoxious with my question. I saw the first star wars and thought it was fun but it did not create a desire for me to see further versions.

I realize the light sabers are neat and they touch a bit of magic desire we all remember from childhood. I did find myself puzzled to their actual use for real combat. Is there a ritual requirement to use these limited weapons? Is their some background establishing that it is best to follow the ritual? I notice that when flying around in combat vehicles it is ok to shoot destructive force from a distance at the enemy.

I am reminded of a bit of sword play in the Raiders of the Lost Ark.