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When Trump was elected in 2016 the hair fire brigade ran into the streets exclaiming "1984" would come to pass..but while that prophecy has not even remotely seen the light of day, we must admit that the Lib-tards had the correct author...just the wrong book.

The Democrats have instead brought about "Homage to Catalonia".

On a positive note, it is an essential transition for the Democratic Party. The meltdown currently occurring in the Democratic Party is the only thing that can save it from the political herpes that is best epitomized by the Clinton machine. The only question is - what will the party look like after the Democrats hit rock bottom in November 2020?

While I could possibly get onboard with the suggestion of which novel better represents our time, I'm surprised to see you ready to acknowledge the fascism on the right like that.

As to the question of what the Democratic party will look like after November, it's hard to say. (I'll ignore the hope in your views as an act of charity). I'd put the convention as the next milestone beyond which one can't readily make predictions.

honorentheos wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:46 pm

While I could possibly get onboard with the suggestion of which novel better represents our time, I'm surprised to see you ready to acknowledge the fascism on the right like that.

As to the question of what the Democratic party will look like after November, it's hard to say. (I'll ignore the hope in your views as an act of charity). I'd put the convention as the next milestone beyond which one can't readily make predictions.

Ya kinda deflected the fascism...it applies more to stalinism than republicanism. The Democrats are imploding and their teetering dementia steeped presumptive candidate is unoriginal at this point. Me thinks liberal denials aren't enough to win on November.

subgenius wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 11, 2020 4:28 pm

honorentheos wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:46 pm

While I could possibly get onboard with the suggestion of which novel better represents our time, I'm surprised to see you ready to acknowledge the fascism on the right like that.

As to the question of what the Democratic party will look like after November, it's hard to say. (I'll ignore the hope in your views as an act of charity). I'd put the convention as the next milestone beyond which one can't readily make predictions.

Ya kinda deflected the fascism...it applies more to stalinism than republicanism. The Democrats are imploding and their teetering dementia steeped presumptive candidate is unoriginal at this point. Me thinks liberal denials aren't enough to win on November.

Hey, you brought up it was a better reflection of our times than 1984, and I agreed there's some merit to the idea. But now you want to ignore the majority of the telling is about his going to Spain to fight fascism, was very much involved in that including shooting enemy but because the POUM with whom he had joined were viewed as Trotskyist and targeted in Barcelona by the Stalinist communists in the purges there you think only part of the novel applies? How selective of you. Lest we forget, the result of the infighting and collapse of the left in Spain (well, and more the fear of the west of communism and atheism, so GB and the US stayed out of the war leading to the Republican forces being outgunned by German and Italian-backed military advancements that served as a testing grounds for their equipment and tactics in WWII) was forty years of fascist rule.

When people make comparisons to 1984, they normally aren't referring to, say, birth control belts, but rather Soviet-style information/truth manipulation and how the public deals with it that 1984 is in reference to.

The Trump admin and its surrounding culture is pretty god damn Orwellian, but it's not literally 1984. The Trump admin is what the Trump admin is, and attempts to compare it to some exact historical or fictional equivalent is always going to fall short. Analogies just need to be understandable in terms of what the analogy is.

Orwell's take away point from his experience in Spain was that Fascism and Stalinism were two faces of the same coin. Authoritarian, violent in putting down their perceived enemies, and their most vocal attacks being on those who were on their side but with differences in views. He retained his belief in the need for more socialist societies to achieve the ideals he believed in, but came to realize that being to the left did not arbitrarily define right from wrong. Kinda hard to ignore when people he aligned with were being killed in the streets and he had to flee the country because of Stalinist purges if non-communists. There are great lessons in Orwell's experience for us today, in my opinion. And the dangers of Fascism are among them. As are the ideas that ideological purity tests are an aspect of left-wing thought that have essentially undermined the aims of bettering society throughout history. Intolerance, authoritarianism is the enemy.

Modern authoritarian governments, be it communist totalitarianism, 1930's fascist or modern neo-fascist governments that get called "populist", theocratic states, African autocracies, etc. all tend to be at least vaguely Orwellian because Orwell was honing in on how authoritarianism deals with the flow of truthful information and how people behave in that environment.

Yeah. But his experiences in real life in Spain informed his best known works afterward. And that also includes how the Left in Great Britain dealt with the infighting in Spain (they sent it down the memory hole) and the ramp up to war against Germany. His views are so accurately extended to how authoritarian regimes work because he saw its many faces rather than just the caricature more common when one is just out to villify. I'd say Homage to Catalonia is not a bad suggestion for informing our time if for reasons subbie chose to ignore.

honorentheos wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:06 pm

Yeah. But his experiences in real life in Spain informed his best known works afterward.

I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm saying that you can see how Fox News's propaganda shifts the narrative in a way that is strongly reminiscent of praising Big Brother for raising the chocolate rations because that's how modern propaganda works. It's the fitness space that authoritarian governments and their supporting arms of all stripes end up landing on.

EAllusion wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:11 pm

honorentheos wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 11, 2020 5:06 pm

Yeah. But his experiences in real life in Spain informed his best known works afterward.

I'm not disagreeing with that. I'm saying that you can see how Fox News's propaganda shifts the narrative in a way that is strongly reminiscent of praising Big Brother for raising the chocolate rations because that's how modern propaganda works. It's the fitness space that authoritarian governments of all stripes end up landing on.

Agreed.