Obama: Open Borders are unsustainable

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Res Ipsa
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Re: Obama: Open Borders are unsustainable

Post by Res Ipsa »

Cultellus wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:38 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:34 pm


Which “this” are you talking about?
"this" = quoted portion of the post. I will accept a four-part answer if you choose to break it down by sentences, including the question lacking appropriate quotation.
The first two sentences do poke fun at Ajax's continual equivocation on the meaning of the term "enforcing the border." It's the flip side of his continual complaints about open borders, even when it's clear that we don't have open borders.

The second two weren't intended as a joke, but as ironic. With respect to the federal government, which controls immigration policy, the only say the American people have had on issues since the United States became a country is to elect their governmental representatives. So, did Ajax wake up this morning and say "Holy Crap!! I don't live in a direct democracy?"
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Re: Obama: Open Borders are unsustainable

Post by Res Ipsa »

Cultellus wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:56 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 5:48 pm


The first two sentences do poke fun at Ajax's continual equivocation on the meaning of the term "enforcing the border." It's the flip side of his continual complaints about open borders, even when it's clear that we don't have open borders.

The second two weren't intended as a joke, but as ironic. With respect to the federal government, which controls immigration policy, the only say the American people have had on issues since the United States became a country is to elect their governmental representatives. So, did Ajax wake up this morning and say "Holy Crap!! I don't live in a direct democracy?"
Great. So the first two sentences did have an element of humor, which, I interpreted as a joke. My compliment to you stands.
The second two were not jokes, but the intended irony landed humorously. My compliment to you stands.
Why, thank you.
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Re: Obama: Open Borders are unsustainable

Post by ajax18 »

The simple basics of supply and demand. Assume that today, adding one undocumented worker is a net benefit to the overall economy. As we keep adding additional workers, we would expect that net benefit to decrease per worker. At some point, the next worker added has a neutral effect, and from then on each new worker is a net detriment. The mistake you are making is comparing the effect of adding one additional worker with adding unlimited additional workers.
I think you're right. But my question was for AlfOmega. I'm interested in how he resolves this contradiction. How many immigrants per year is too much? And Schmo has gone on record stating that he believes crossing the border between the US and Mexico should be no different than crossing the border between Georgia and Florida.
And when the Confederates saw Jackson standing fearless like a stonewall, the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
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Re: Obama: Open Borders are unsustainable

Post by canpakes »

ajax18 wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:30 pm
How many immigrants per year is too much?
Easy to determine.

Find the figure for ‘just enough’, and then add 3/4 of one more immigrant. Like, a border crosser missing one leg.
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Re: Obama: Open Borders are unsustainable

Post by Gadianton »

I got a kick out of this article on Seeking Alpha.

The author of this blog advertises his service as "Author of High Dividend Opportunities. The #1 Service for Income Investors and Retirees, 9-10% dividend yield".

This financial writer's audience is a conservative crowd if there ever was one. He certainly has no incentive to promote liberal ideology. He's quite critical of Biden's policies. His article is pretty long, and you might have to register to read the whole thing, so I'll quote the relevant points. Any interpretation of financial markets requires perspective on the economy in general, and so here's his explanation for why we're living in fragile times.
Today, the situation is even more critical. We are just out of a recession with the economy more fragile than in the past decade. Any false move by the Fed or premature hike would throw the economy back into a recession. Furthermore, the Fed has learned the economy can no longer withstand an increase in Fed Fund rates of more than probably 2%. We are no longer in the golden years where the economy can withstand Fed rates of 5% or more.

The main, and interrelated, reasons:

An ever-weakening economy due to declining population growth.
A Fed that's re-setting interest rates lower each time there is a market crash.

We have been witnessing a secular declining population growth rate in the United States since the 1980s. This has resulted in a more fragile economy that is prone to more recessions.

In fact, during the past decade, the US population grew at the slowest rate since the 1930s (which coincided with the Great Depression), as reported by the Census Bureau in April 2021. It's expected that the U.S. population will grow in 2021 at a rate of only 0.58%. This is about half of the growth rate of the year 2000, which is quite alarming.

A growing population is one of the biggest drivers of economic growth. In fact, economic activity is dependent on the number of people available to make things and/or provide services, multiplied by how productive those people are. This means that slower population growth will directly equate to slower economic growth. Lower population growth also will mean lower consumption, and the United States is a consumer-driven economy. Once the economy loses that, it loses its biggest driver and becomes vulnerable to all kinds of small economic shocks.
So, Ajax, unless you and your neighbors are willing to sacrifice and pump out more kids, we're going to need to swing those borders wide open.
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Re: Obama: Open Borders are unsustainable

Post by Brack »

ajax18 wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:03 pm
If illegal immigrants are a net benefit to the economy, how can it be true that open borders are unsustainable?

One can be in favor of giving some illegal immigrants amnesty and not being for open borders. Back in 1986, Reagan signed leglislation granting illegal immigrants amnesty, but he wasn't really for open borders.

The immigration system is broken and outdated, and it needs to be updated by Congress. And Congress should pass leglislation granting amnesty to some of the illegal immigrants here.
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Re: Obama: Open Borders are unsustainable

Post by ajax18 »

Brack wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:56 pm
ajax18 wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 2:03 pm
If illegal immigrants are a net benefit to the economy, how can it be true that open borders are unsustainable?

One can be in favor of giving some illegal immigrants amnesty and not being for open borders. Back in 1986, Reagan signed leglislation granting illegal immigrants amnesty, but he wasn't really for open borders.

The immigration system is broken and outdated, and it needs to be updated by Congress. And Congress should pass leglislation granting amnesty to some of the illegal immigrants here.
If the border remains unenforced, any new legislation is meaningless and so is the idea of democratic rule of law.
And when the Confederates saw Jackson standing fearless like a stonewall, the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
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Re: Obama: Open Borders are unsustainable

Post by Res Ipsa »

ajax18 wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:20 pm
Brack wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:56 pm


One can be in favor of giving some illegal immigrants amnesty and not being for open borders. Back in 1986, Reagan signed leglislation granting illegal immigrants amnesty, but he wasn't really for open borders.

The immigration system is broken and outdated, and it needs to be updated by Congress. And Congress should pass leglislation granting amnesty to some of the illegal immigrants here.
If the border remains unenforced, any new legislation is meaningless and so is the idea of democratic rule of law.
The fact that the border is not being enforced to the extent you want it to does not make new legislation or the democratic rule of law meaningless. Democracy does not promise any individual that he gets what he wants.
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When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.

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Re: Obama: Open Borders are unsustainable

Post by ajax18 »

The fact that the border is not being enforced to the extent you want it to does not make new legislation or the democratic rule of law meaningless.
The border was never enforced to the extent a majority of voters wanted, not just what I personally wanted. Reagan was foolish to give amnesty in exchange for a false promise of border enforcement. That is why the system is broken. We can't trust your side to uphold your end of the bargain. This is a big reason why individual freedom, private property rights, workers rights, and rule of law will never be restored until an independent conservative state is established.
And when the Confederates saw Jackson standing fearless like a stonewall, the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
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Re: Obama: Open Borders are unsustainable

Post by Alf'Omega »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 5:29 pm
ajax18 wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 4:20 pm


If the border remains unenforced, any new legislation is meaningless and so is the idea of democratic rule of law.
The fact that the border is not being enforced to the extent you want it to does not make new legislation or the democratic rule of law meaningless. Democracy does not promise any individual that he gets what he wants.
Ajax would have us believe no one crossed the border when Trump was in office because the border was "closed." Yeah, right. Crossings reached a 12 year high under Trump and he and his family went out of their way to cover up that fact to keep it out of media headlines. Waves of immigrants will come when they come, and it has nothing to do with who is President and everything to do with what's going on in Honduras, Guatemala, and Haiti at the time.
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