Thread for discussing climate change

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Res Ipsa
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

Post by Res Ipsa »

Atlanticmike wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:16 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 4:40 pm


If I stopped driving to work, taking hot showers, heating my home, eating meat, eating vegetables, etc., it would not change the temperature of the atmosphere. The notion that, unless I become a hermit to no effect whatsoever, I can't propose measures that can have an effect, is just silly. I don't know why you think that's any kind of effective argument – it just makes you sound ignorant.

I'm perfectly willing to have measures that will be effective in getting us to zero emissions affect me the same as they will affect everyone else, so I'm being completely consistent. I'm just not into satisfy your demand for ineffective virtue signaling.
I didn't say you should stop going to work. I said stop driving a car and fxxxing up the planet. I never said stop taking a shower. I said stop taking a hot shower so you don't fxxx up the planet by heating water with either electricity or gas. I never said stop heating your home. Why did you do it in the last couple days like I asked? I never said stop eating meat or vegetables. I ask why you didn't raise your own meat and vegetables instead of buying them at a grocery store. You see!! People like you, chap and Gunner will read and learn all about climate change, but you're never willing to make REAL changes because you're hypocrites. You spend hours reading and understanding climate change when you could be spending that time riding a bike instead of driving or raising your own meat instead of buying it from the store. You see! I'm a man of action, I practice what I preach! You're a man of inaction, so you "learn" about climate change so you seem smart and knowledgeable to your friends and somehow in your mind your supposed knowledge helps you feel justified with your inaction.

You ever heard of the 3Ds? There's the Dreamers, the Debaters and the Doers. When it comes to climate change you're a debater! Which is pretty much useless. I'm a doer! I make change while you study it.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
You're trying to BS a guy who bullshits for a living! You're not a "man of action" on climate change. You just take stuff you do for other reasons and try to spin it as fighting climate change.

I would be a hypocrite if I proposed making changes that I was somehow exempt from. I'm not. You clearly do not understand the magnitude of the change that we need to make to stop heating the atmosphere. Raising chickens and riding your bike does just about zero to reduce greenhouse emissions. It's just a flat out dumb argument.

You actually have no idea what I've personally done to reduce my energy consumption, so you're just making noise now.

Getting to net zero greenhouse gas emissions requires retooling our system of producing electricity and our methods of transportation. It can't be done through individual, voluntary effort. Growing some veggies and poultry doesn't get us there by a long shot. Useless virtue signaling.
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

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Atlanticmike wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:39 pm
canpakes wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 7:12 pm



Lol. Some city. I currently have pumpkins, corn and tomatoes growing and we use it all. Don’t discount those seasonal cucurbits until you’ve seen how much tasty bread, soup and mashed potato mix-ins you can get with the pumpkins alone.

We considered chickens, but the work required to make our space ‘raccoon proof’ makes it prohibitive. That’s not a ‘city’ problem.

Besides, your response again shows your two-dimensional perspective. It’s great that you have some advantages in raising chickens. Most folks don’t share the same advantages. You pitched your solution as somehow being valid on a much more massive scale than exceeds your own property. ; )
No need for chickens, raise quail. They're actually tastier and quieter. Here, I'll help you get started. Call Bass equipment and order a 12" high X 48"wide X 36" deep rabbit cage with 1/2"x1/2" galvanized 14 gauge floor. You can hang the cage up 4' off the ground and you don't have to worry about coons or possums. Cover the top with plywood or get fancy and build a nice top/roof. Then go to myShire farms online and order 8 Coturnix quail hens and 2 roosters. Once they reach 8 weeks old you'll be getting around 5to6 eggs a day. If you buy an incubator later on, you can raise for meat. We eat around 15 or so quail a week. If you're not bothered by butchering small birds, you can process a quail out in about 60 seconds. Now stop making excuses and go save the environment instead if reading about how we are all doomed.
What is your evidence that backyard quail is more greenhouse gas efficient than chicken?
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

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Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:17 pm
Raising chickens and riding your bike does just about zero to reduce greenhouse emissions.


To be fair, I’ve only seen that Mike raises quail, as his contribution to being climate-smart.

I’m not betting that he rides a bicycle to his project sites.
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

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Atlanticmike wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:06 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 6:58 pm


There is a good answer: when measured in greenhouse gas emissions per mass of protein produced, backyard chickens raised for meat produce greenhouse gases at only a slightly lower rate than commercially raised chickens. Backyard chickens raised for eggs produce greenhouse gases at a higher rate than commercially raised chickens. Depending on whether you raise chickens for meat or eggs, raising your own chickens instead of buying them at the store ranges from a negligible decrease in greenhouse gas emissions to an increase in greenhouse gas emissions.

The problem is, all you did was list all the ways you thought use of energy could be saved. But you didn't take into account that, if I'm going to the store anyway, the marginal cost of store bought chicken is zero in terms of my fuel consumption, zero in terms of lighting, etc. You also failed to take into account efficiencies in the way commercial chickens are raised that result in more protein being produced per volume of greenhouse gas emissions.

There's certainly nothing wrong with self-sufficiency. But raising chickens in your backyard is not going to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. In fact, the world is producing close to 50 billion tons of CO2-eq in greenhouse gases per year. Raising chickens produces a total of about .6 billion tons. So, even if we stopped growing chickens completely, we'd have reduced greenhouse gas emissions by about 1%. But, assuming people replaced eating chickens and eggs with a different source of calories and protein, the savings would be even less. And if they, say, replaced chicken with beef, the result would be an increased rate of CO2 emissions.

If you want to get the right answers, you can't just fake your way through an analysis. You have to put in the time and effort. The source for the figures I quoted is here: https://www.fao.org/3/i3460e/i3460e.pdf For the comparison of greenhouse gas emissions for commercially raised chickens and backyard chickens, see table 32.
Why didn't you address all the CO2 emissions involved with transporting livestock and processed meat around? I bet there's 10,000 tractor trailers on the road right now transporting live or processed meat. All spewing exhaust because we've grown accustomed to having everything we eat grown and delivered to us. How many freezers or refrigerators are consuming electricity as we speak so you can conveniently walk into a grocery store and pick up a bag of chicken? How many styrofoam trays are being produced as we speak so you can take the chicken home safely and cleanly? Think about it! What's the energy consumption I described? That's all done because we're lazy, fat and rather watch TV than work outside. Hate to tell ya, but man made climate change is tied directly to our reliance on others and our obsession with convenience.

Here's an idea! Instead of teaching our youth about "equity" and brainwashing them with stupid critical race theory cult think, let's teach our youth how to be self reliant, to grow food at home. That they don't need to set the a/c to 70 in the summer or 72 in the winter. Let's teach them to extend the life of a car and to drive a car until 3 or 400,000 miles so we can stop producing so many vehicles. No? Would that inconvenient? Does a real environmentalist read and study about climate change or do they act? I act! You guys come on a board and complain about climate change. Big difference even though you can't admit it!
It's all addressed in the paper. Learn to read. You're just talking out of your ass, which doesn't cut it.

Self reliance doesn't necessarily reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Like the analysis shows, if you stop buying eggs at the store and raise chickens for eggs in your backyard, you're increasing the amount of greenhouse gases emitted per oz of protein from the eggs. You're taking into account only the cost of doing things at scale, not the efficiencies of doing things at scale.

As for your rant, why not make the investment necessary to avoid passing on a greatly impoverished world to our children and grandchildren? Your way is to run up the balance on the CO2 credit card as fast as possible and then leave the bill to your daughters and their children. Why not show them how to be environmentally responsible as well as financially responsible?

Unless you've taken your family off grid (which you haven't, as you are able to post through the internet), you're not teaching your kids to be "self-reliant." You and your kids are reliant on literally millions of other people in living your lives. Growing some birds and veggies is self-reliance cosplay. In today's world, it's just a denial of your dependence on the efforts of others. You want to teach your kids skills that have value in today's world? Teach them the skills they need to work with others to get things done and solve problems that cannot be solved by individuals. Otherwise, congratulations! You've taught your kids the skills they needed to survive in the 1800s. Well done!

Once again, you have no idea what steps I have taken to reduce my own energy consumption.
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

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According to the table, it appears backyard chickens have a higher carbon emission than industrial egg layers. Interesting.

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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 11:08 pm
According to the table, it appears backyard chickens have a higher carbon emission than industrial egg layers. Interesting.

- Doc
Yep. That's why you have to do a comprehensive life cycle analysis to make sure that changes you make will actually reduce greenhouse gas emissions.
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

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Here’s a link to an abstract of a paper that I wish wasn’t behind a paywall: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... via%3Dihub

The basic idea is this: we’re using up our sources of oil that are easy to get to. As we move toward more and more unconventional sources like tar sands and oil shale, it takes more energy to produce each barrel of oil. The paper predicts that by 2050, it will take half a barrel of oil in energy to produce one barrel of oil. It suggests that the oil market will collapse so quickly from these diminishing returns that a smooth transition to alternative energy sources may not be possible.

I can’t vouch for the quality of the paper, but it’s an interesting concept to consider.
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

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A-Mike's arguments are red herrings and pointless.

1) Even if I don't recycle or do anything green, I'm not a hypocrite for wanting green policies. From the Thomas Sowell example of mudflaps that today's right-winger no longer understands: if there is no law mandating mudflaps, most people won't take one for the team and buy them, knowing few others will follow. People are much more likely to vote for legislation mandating it; willing to take the hit if everyone else is forced to take the hit as well. legislation to control externalities in the form of pollution work the same way.

2) Even if a movie star's carbon footprint is terrible due to her wealth ensuring somewhere, carbon is produced, green energy homes and cars are still a meaningful contribution. The bleeding edge of green energy is costly, and for those with money to pay for it, the process is helped along to where eventually, the average person can do it and reduction is meaningful.
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

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Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:19 pm
Atlanticmike wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 8:39 pm


No need for chickens, raise quail. They're actually tastier and quieter. Here, I'll help you get started. Call Bass equipment and order a 12" high X 48"wide X 36" deep rabbit cage with 1/2"x1/2" galvanized 14 gauge floor. You can hang the cage up 4' off the ground and you don't have to worry about coons or possums. Cover the top with plywood or get fancy and build a nice top/roof. Then go to myShire farms online and order 8 Coturnix quail hens and 2 roosters. Once they reach 8 weeks old you'll be getting around 5to6 eggs a day. If you buy an incubator later on, you can raise for meat. We eat around 15 or so quail a week. If you're not bothered by butchering small birds, you can process a quail out in about 60 seconds. Now stop making excuses and go save the environment instead if reading about how we are all doomed.
What is your evidence that backyard quail is more greenhouse gas efficient than chicken?
Quail farts are less potent than chicken farts. I've done experiments and I've written a couple of papers on the subject. Trust me, I'm in expert.
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

Post by Atlanticmike »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 10:45 pm
Atlanticmike wrote:
Thu Oct 21, 2021 9:06 pm


Why didn't you address all the CO2 emissions involved with transporting livestock and processed meat around? I bet there's 10,000 tractor trailers on the road right now transporting live or processed meat. All spewing exhaust because we've grown accustomed to having everything we eat grown and delivered to us. How many freezers or refrigerators are consuming electricity as we speak so you can conveniently walk into a grocery store and pick up a bag of chicken? How many styrofoam trays are being produced as we speak so you can take the chicken home safely and cleanly? Think about it! What's the energy consumption I described? That's all done because we're lazy, fat and rather watch TV than work outside. Hate to tell ya, but man made climate change is tied directly to our reliance on others and our obsession with convenience.

Here's an idea! Instead of teaching our youth about "equity" and brainwashing them with stupid critical race theory cult think, let's teach our youth how to be self reliant, to grow food at home. That they don't need to set the a/c to 70 in the summer or 72 in the winter. Let's teach them to extend the life of a car and to drive a car until 3 or 400,000 miles so we can stop producing so many vehicles. No? Would that inconvenient? Does a real environmentalist read and study about climate change or do they act? I act! You guys come on a board and complain about climate change. Big difference even though you can't admit it!
It's all addressed in the paper. Learn to read. You're just talking out of your ass, which doesn't cut it.

Self reliance doesn't necessarily reduce greenhouse gas emissions. Like the analysis shows, if you stop buying eggs at the store and raise chickens for eggs in your backyard, you're increasing the amount of greenhouse gases emitted per oz of protein from the eggs. You're taking into account only the cost of doing things at scale, not the efficiencies of doing things at scale.

As for your rant, why not make the investment necessary to avoid passing on a greatly impoverished world to our children and grandchildren? Your way is to run up the balance on the CO2 credit card as fast as possible and then leave the bill to your daughters and their children. Why not show them how to be environmentally responsible as well as financially responsible?

Unless you've taken your family off grid (which you haven't, as you are able to post through the internet), you're not teaching your kids to be "self-reliant." You and your kids are reliant on literally millions of other people in living your lives. Growing some birds and veggies is self-reliance cosplay. In today's world, it's just a denial of your dependence on the efforts of others. You want to teach your kids skills that have value in today's world? Teach them the skills they need to work with others to get things done and solve problems that cannot be solved by individuals. Otherwise, congratulations! You've taught your kids the skills they needed to survive in the 1800s. Well done!

Once again, you have no idea what steps I have taken to reduce my own energy consumption.
Holy fxxxin sxxt!! Here we go again!! You say, it's all addressed in the paper it's all addressed in the paper!! Fxxx the paper. I understand you're a lawyer and you find it hard to use common sense, but good god man, this is just pure common sense. My backyard chickens never see a mile of roadway during their short life while commercial chickens can see 100s of miles which means it takes tons of fuel to transport them when they're alive and even after they're dead. The raising of commercial chickens or any livestock isn't the main problem, it's the transportation. I find it funny you're telling me none of this matters because it's all "small potatoes" and we need to address the bigger more global issues when it comes to climate change. Almost as if we have to choose to do one and we can't do both at the same time. Is that what you're saying ? That an individuals carbon footprint doesn't matter because the problem is way bigger than we can even handle? That our only hope is government mandates and laws,?
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