Thread for discussing climate change

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canpakes
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

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Atlanticmike wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:22 am
So here's a couple questions for you and canpakes, the math wizard. 200 years ago, did people go to Tractor Supply to buy chicken feed? Did they go to Tractor Supply to buy electric incubators? How about food bowls or water dishes? Did they have Amazon deliver their chicken feed? No??? Of course not!!!!

They didn’t have roofers 200 years ago, either. Also, electricity hadn’t been invented yet, so ‘no’ on electric incubators.

Should we get rid of your profession? We could save the Earth, right, if we can somehow get rid of roofers..? : )

So are you and Canpakes telling me that sense our ancestors have been raising chickens for thousands of years without the use of any fossil fuels, somehow we can't do the same? Really? Please explain that to me!
Some folks can. Most folks can’t. Again, please drive to any nearby city and let me know how many folks in apartments can raise chickens.

But that isn’t the point, anyway. You’re just spinning up on this chicken topic because it’s a thing that you are familiar with from doing it at your own home. But it isn’t something that you’ve bothered to analyze for energy efficiency. You do it for fresh birds and eggs. That’s nice and all, but converting everyone to home-grown chickens just moves the energy expenditure around without making much difference. This isn’t going to affect the path that we’re on now.

Do you want to know what consumes a crapload of energy, by comparison? Concrete construction, is one example.

You never did tell me what it was about any climate legislation that you’re fearful of, or why teaching kids about how to be resource-smart is a bad thing. What I’m particular has you so worked up about ‘climate change’?
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

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canpakes wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 1:46 pm
Atlanticmike wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:22 am
So here's a couple questions for you and canpakes, the math wizard. 200 years ago, did people go to Tractor Supply to buy chicken feed? Did they go to Tractor Supply to buy electric incubators? How about food bowls or water dishes? Did they have Amazon deliver their chicken feed? No??? Of course not!!!!

They didn’t have roofers 200 years ago, either. Also, electricity hadn’t been invented yet, so ‘no’ on electric incubators.

Should we get rid of your profession? We could save the Earth, right, if we can somehow get rid of roofers..? : )

So are you and Canpakes telling me that sense our ancestors have been raising chickens for thousands of years without the use of any fossil fuels, somehow we can't do the same? Really? Please explain that to me!
Some folks can. Most folks can’t. Again, please drive to any nearby city and let me know how many folks in apartments can raise chickens.

But that isn’t the point, anyway. You’re just spinning up on this chicken topic because it’s a thing that you are familiar with from doing it at your own home. But it isn’t something that you’ve bothered to analyze for energy efficiency. You do it for fresh birds and eggs. That’s nice and all, but converting everyone to home-grown chickens just moves the energy expenditure around without making much difference. This isn’t going to affect the path that we’re on now.

Do you want to know what consumes a crapload of energy, by comparison? Concrete construction, is one example.

You never did tell me what it was about any climate legislation that you’re fearful of, or why teaching kids about how to be resource-smart is a bad thing. What I’m particular has you so worked up about ‘climate change’?
Are you actually telling me they didn't have roofs 200 years ago!?!? Of course the had roofers, ding dong!! The guy who climbed on top of the house and installed the roof was the roofer. The next day he might be the butcher, who knows. What are you talking about??

You didn't answer the question!! How did humans raise chickens 200 years ago without all the modern conveniences we have today? It's not about what I'm familiar with, it's that what I'm speaking about as far as chickens has been done for thousands of years. You're conveniently leaving that out of the equation.

""Most folks can't"" Are you actually trying to say there weren't any big populated cities around the world 200 years ago? And if there were, they must of all been vegetarians because people who live close together can't figure out a way to raise meat? You sure are full of excuses canpakes! Apartment buildings in Roman times were called insulaes. Yes canpakes, apartments have been around for thousands of years. Are you going to tell everyone that if people lived in apartments 1000 years ago they had to be vegetarians because there was no way to raise chickens?
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

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Atlanticmike wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:22 am
Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:17 am


Your “common sense” is not sense at all. Common sense works only if you have the knowledge and experience to intuitively understand what you are talking about. Neither of us has that. The only difference is that I know enough to know that I don’t know, while your arrogance blinds you to your own ignorance.

Yes, it’s in the paper. The people who have knowledge and experience at determining life cycle carbon emissions are far more likely to get the right answer than a random roofer or lawyer. But this is great example of where your anti-intellectual, anti-science cult has brought us. You reject evidence and make crap up motivated solely by your political prejudices. Your political prejudices won’t let you admit that there are some problems that require governmental action to fix, so you simply reject the facts.

Grow up, man. Admit that you have no idea how to analyze backyard v. Commercial chickens from the stand point of greenhouse gases per gram of protein and consult someone who does. You have access to incredible amounts of specialized knowledge through your phone, for God’s sake. Use it!

And we don’t have to choose between individual and collective action. We can do both. But if we want to fix the problem, collective action is required. Greenhouse gas emissions are a spectacular example of market failure. And relying on individual action presents a massive free rider problem.

I’m a pragmatist. When there’s a significant problem, I’m in favor of finding and implementing effective solutions. I care more about finding solutions that work as opposed to the tenets of political dogma.

I’ve done quite a bit to reduce my own carbon footprint because I think it’s the ethical thing to do. But I also don’t Kid myself into believing that my actions will fix the problem.
I'm sorry, but listening to you try to justify the practices of the global chicken industry is one of the reasons we need to get rid of all the lawyers in Congress. You guys have no common sense but yet we let you make laws that affect our daily lives.

People have been raising domesticated chickens for around 10,000 years and there's evidence that chickens started being eaten in significant numbers 2000 years ago. So here's a couple questions for you and canpakes, the math wizard. 200 years ago, did people go to Tractor Supply to buy chicken feed? Did they go to Tractor Supply to buy electric incubators? How about food bowls or water dishes? Did they have Amazon deliver their chicken feed? No??? Of course not!!!! Humans have been raising chickens for 1000s of years without the need of electric incubators, commercial feed, electric fans, electric or propane heaters, f****** light bulbs, tractors and other equipment to get rid of the manure, thousands of tractor trailers that drive 24/7 to transport the live or dead chicken meat, refrigeration in grocery stores to keep it fresh and the 350,000 people in the United States who drive to work and back from work everyday in the chicken industry. For fxxx sake! This is so basic and simple to understand it's going completely over your big brained head! Let me say it one more time. Chickens have been raised for thousands of years without the need of electricity, propane, tractor trailers, commercial chicken feed, heaters and so on.

So are you and Canpakes telling me that sense our ancestors have been raising chickens for thousands of years without the use of any fossil fuels, somehow we can't do the same? Really? Please explain that to me!

Oh, by the way, since I ragged on you about being a lawyer, I'd like you to know I would rather work for a dozen lawyers than one doctor. Doctors are the fxxxing worse people in the world to work for. 99% of them have a God complex. Lawyers really aren't that bad.
First, any lawyer who is bothered by nasty comments about lawyers needs to find another line of work. It comes with the territory.

Second, one thing good lawyers are really good at is spotting bad arguments. Here's a terrible one:

RI: Growing backyard chickens for eggs in place of buying them at the store increases the production of CO2.
AM: You're just trying to justify the practices of the global chickens industry!

That's a terrible argument, because your response doesn't follow from what I said. "Big Chicken" can be criticized on any number of grounds, including CO2 emissions. But that doesn't change the facts about CO2 emissions. I haven't expressed any opinion at all on "Big Chicken" -- just reported information.

You can answer your own questions by reading the damn paper, or I can explain it to you in my own charming way. Given your apparent fear of reading facts that contradict your own biases, I'll start with charm.

What is the primary source of CO2 emissions when you raise laying hens in your backyard?
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canpakes
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

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Atlanticmike wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:16 pm
Are you actually telling me they didn't have roofs 200 years ago!?!? Of course the had roofers, ding dong!! The guy who climbed on top of the house and installed the roof was the roofer. The next day he might be the butcher, who knows. What are you talking about??

You got it. There were no ‘roofers’. Anyone who built a house also put on their own roof. They didn’t call Atlanticmike the Roofer to come and lay up some rafters and slap on the shingles. Your job exists because of the same sort of mass production and specialization that has allowed the worldwide population to expand by another 50% since 200 years ago.

But, I’m sure that you’re going to tell me next that we can ditch the roofing industry, and go back to letting everyone make their own roofs, underlayment and shingles … because that’s more energy efficient. Right? : )

You didn't answer the question!! How did humans raise chickens 200 years ago without all the modern conveniences we have today? It's not about what I'm familiar with, it's that what I'm speaking about as far as chickens has been done for thousands of years. You're conveniently leaving that out of the equation.

No one in this thread has claimed that chickens weren’t around 200 years ago. But, since you asked, chickens are indeed more often consumed today (via mass production) versus 200 years ago, when they factored into the diet much less frequently. Per https://www.westonaprice.org/health-top ... umed-meat/

“ For most of American history, poultry and eggs were luxury foods. Chicken traditionally was far more expensive than beef or pork—after all, you needed grain to feed chickens, but cows could grow on grass and pigs could grow on garbage. For the first half of the twentieth century, the average person ate twenty pounds of chicken or less per year (approximately six chickens). By 1964, chicken had become more of a staple and people were consuming over a half pound per week—up to twenty-five to thirty pounds per year. Since then, we have continued to increase our chicken consumption almost every single year. As a result, chicken is now the number-one meat in the nation, with the average person consuming an estimated two pounds per person per week, or roughly one hundred pounds (thirty chickens) per year. In 2015, the average household ate chicken three to four times per week.”

You should read that whole page. You’ll see that raising chickens was never particularly easy 200 years ago, neither was it ever a primary source of a rural family’s meat. If not then, why do you think that it can be now, in urban settings?

""Most folks can't"" Are you actually trying to say there weren't any big populated cities around the world 200 years ago? And if there were, they must of all been vegetarians because people who live close together can't figure out a way to raise meat? You sure are full of excuses canpakes! Apartment buildings in Roman times were called insulaes. Yes canpakes, apartments have been around for thousands of years. Are you going to tell everyone that if people lived in apartments 1000 years ago they had to be vegetarians because there was no way to raise chickens?

Nope. Read up on history. Chickens weren’t being raised in insulae.

And, chickens weren’t being raised in the tenements of the 1800’s. Read up on that history, too. Tenement living in the 1800’s was super-cramped, dark, and without electricity or plumbing. NYC’s Tenement House Act of 1867 finally mandated a minimum of one ‘toilet’ per 20 people, and regulations requiring at least one window within each living area weren’t mandated until the 1900s.

And, there’s probably no-one that you know who lives in an apartment building today who raises chickens, mainly because they need space to scratch and crap. Sure, you can try it - if your apartment manager allows you to - but the time and care requirements are more demanding, for less payout - https://grist.org/article/2011-10-04-ca ... apartment/

Now that the distraction of raising chickens has been cleared away, tell me what it was about any climate legislation that you’re fearful of, or why teaching kids about how to be resource-smart is a bad thing. What I’m particular has you so worked up about ‘climate change’?
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

Post by Cultellus »

What came first, the domesticated chicken or the roofer? We know that roofs preceded Nephi and those boats with the glowing rocks. But what about domesticated chickens?
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

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Cultellus wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:30 pm
What came first, the domesticated chicken or the roofer? We know that roofs preceded Nephi and those boats with the glowing rocks. But what about domesticated chickens?
Domesticated chickens.

Next question?
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

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Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:15 pm
Atlanticmike wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 11:22 am


I'm sorry, but listening to you try to justify the practices of the global chicken industry is one of the reasons we need to get rid of all the lawyers in Congress. You guys have no common sense but yet we let you make laws that affect our daily lives.

People have been raising domesticated chickens for around 10,000 years and there's evidence that chickens started being eaten in significant numbers 2000 years ago. So here's a couple questions for you and canpakes, the math wizard. 200 years ago, did people go to Tractor Supply to buy chicken feed? Did they go to Tractor Supply to buy electric incubators? How about food bowls or water dishes? Did they have Amazon deliver their chicken feed? No??? Of course not!!!! Humans have been raising chickens for 1000s of years without the need of electric incubators, commercial feed, electric fans, electric or propane heaters, f****** light bulbs, tractors and other equipment to get rid of the manure, thousands of tractor trailers that drive 24/7 to transport the live or dead chicken meat, refrigeration in grocery stores to keep it fresh and the 350,000 people in the United States who drive to work and back from work everyday in the chicken industry. For fxxx sake! This is so basic and simple to understand it's going completely over your big brained head! Let me say it one more time. Chickens have been raised for thousands of years without the need of electricity, propane, tractor trailers, commercial chicken feed, heaters and so on.

So are you and Canpakes telling me that sense our ancestors have been raising chickens for thousands of years without the use of any fossil fuels, somehow we can't do the same? Really? Please explain that to me!

Oh, by the way, since I ragged on you about being a lawyer, I'd like you to know I would rather work for a dozen lawyers than one doctor. Doctors are the fxxxing worse people in the world to work for. 99% of them have a God complex. Lawyers really aren't that bad.
First, any lawyer who is bothered by nasty comments about lawyers needs to find another line of work. It comes with the territory.

Second, one thing good lawyers are really good at is spotting bad arguments. Here's a terrible one:

RI: Growing backyard chickens for eggs in place of buying them at the store increases the production of CO2.
AM: You're just trying to justify the practices of the global chickens industry!

That's a terrible argument, because your response doesn't follow from what I said. "Big Chicken" can be criticized on any number of grounds, including CO2 emissions. But that doesn't change the facts about CO2 emissions. I haven't expressed any opinion at all on "Big Chicken" -- just reported information.

You can answer your own questions by reading the damn paper, or I can explain it to you in my own charming way. Given your apparent fear of reading facts that contradict your own biases, I'll start with charm.

What is the primary source of CO2 emissions when you raise laying hens in your backyard?
I'll tell you what CO2 emissions are a non factor when raising backyard chickens. Here's a incomplete list of equipment that's not needed to raise backyard chickens verse commercial chickens. Industrial fans, industrial heaters, diesel tractors, diesel bulldozers, diesel tractor trailers for the farms, large refrigerators, large freezers, 1000s of employees, around 350,000 employees actually driving to and from work everyday, tractor trailers carrying chicken feed, tractor trailers carrying away chicken manure, tractor trailers carrying chicks, tractor trailers carryng process meat to the supermarket, also don't forget tractor trailers making the return trip. Everything I just described helps with the buildup of CO2 emissions around the world. Are you telling me it doesn't?? Now! My backyard chickens. I raise them in chicken tractors and move the tractor every other day, all done by hand. Their diet consist of bugs, grass, fermented wheat, barley and corn, table scraps and a vitamin supplement. I don't need fans, lights, heaters (hens are the heaters). We have a compost pile that's fenced in and after the baby chicks are raised by their mom in the chicken tractor, they live the remainder of their short life living off the compost and fermented grains. Compost consist of mulch I get for free, grass clippings I get for free, leaves I get for free, and a crap ton of table and restaurant scraps I get for free. When I go fishing or surfing, we're at the beach we always collect sea shells, clam and oyster shells and bring them home and throw them in the compost after crushing them up.

Here's a great video that explains the basics of raising local meat and cutting out the rest industry. This could be done throughout the USA but sadly it isn't. If you can't watch the whole video, watch from the 5 minute mark til 9 minutes and he explains how we could raise meat by coming together as a community.
https://youtu.be/LbmjCN4T19o
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

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Atlanticmike wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 3:57 pm
Compost consist of mulch I get for free, grass clippings I get for free, leaves I get for free, and a crap ton of table and restaurant scraps I get for free. When I go fishing or surfing, we're at the beach we always collect sea shells, clam and oyster shells and bring them home and throw them in the compost after crushing them up.
1. Good for the folks that live near a source for seashells. What about the rest of the nation?

2. How is all of that ‘free’ grass, leaves and restaurant scraps getting to your place? And how is it being produced, via what resources? Because all of that embodied energy factors into the energy use of your chickens.


Here's a great video that explains the basics of raising local meat and cutting out the rest industry. This could be done throughout the USA but sadly it isn't. If you can't watch the whole video, watch from the 5 minute mark til 9 minutes and he explains how we could raise meat by coming together as a community.
https://youtu.be/LbmjCN4T19o

That’s great, Mike. Sounds like you hold the idea of being a more responsible person within a larger community. Seems like the larger discussion around climate change shouldn’t scare you, then, and you’d be happy for your girls to know more about it.

What’s the problem with that?
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

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canpakes wrote:
Fri Oct 22, 2021 2:05 am
If those chickens were frozen, then you can pack a whole bunch more on a TT.
Load them up on a reefer, and you've cut the fuel cost down to a crazy low amount per chicken (probably in the realm of milliliters).


ETA: "Reefer" = Refrigerated Boxcar. I inadvertently channeled my dad (retired locomotive engineer). It's one of those terms that's stuck with me, because it made me giggle every time my small-town Mormon dad would say it.
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Re: Thread for discussing climate change

Post by Res Ipsa »

Mike, can you answer the question instead of Gish galloping about things you’ve said multiple times? What is the primary source of CO2 emissions for layers you raise in your backyard?
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