Giuliani reveals under oath no evidence for stolen election.

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Giuliani reveals under oath no evidence for stolen election.

Post by Gunnar »

Rudy Giuliani, Under Oath, Reveals Baseless Origins Of Trump Big Lie Claims
Rachel Maddow reads excerpts from the transcript of a deposition, under oath, of Donald Trump lawyer Rudy Giuliani in which he explains that he can't remember but thinks some of the conspiracy theories he pushed about the 2020 election came from social media and he didn't bother to check the truthfulness of the claims from his bombshell source who claimed the election was stolen.
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Re: Giuliani reveals under oath no evidence for stolen election.

Post by Alf'Omega »

This is basically the same way most Republicans propagate nonsense. They see something "somewhere" on the internet and if it is to their liking, they run with it. The irony is that these are the same people criticizing legit news outlets for being "fake news."

Giuliani should be disbarred immediately. He is a disgrace.
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Re: Giuliani reveals under oath no evidence for stolen election.

Post by Moksha »

My guess is that nearly all the Big Lie proponents knew their claims were bogus. They advanced the claims anyway because the operating norm established for them was to lie about everything, especially if it benefited Trump.
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Re: Giuliani reveals under oath no evidence for stolen election.

Post by Gunnar »

The saddest part of it is that I don't think many of them really like Trump. They are terrified of losing the support of his fanatical, cult-like base whom Trump has successfully deluded into thinking he can do no wrong.
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
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Re: Giuliani reveals under oath no evidence for stolen election.

Post by Gadianton »

From another thread where I rightly called Rush Limbaugh one of the most evil human beings to have lived, Ceeboo wrote:
Ceeboo wrote:A free American citizen that expressed his opinions (no matter what those opinions were or what you personally happen to think of them) is one of the most evil human beings to have lived?
It's possible his quibble was with "most evil". But I think Ceeboo's dispute runs deeper than objecting to hyperbole. He's free to correct me if I'm wrong, but my best guess is that what he really meant was far from being "most evil" or even "evil", there is something inherently good in the opinion of any free American expressing an opinion.

Are there natural limits to the moral implications of words? Do the words and parables of Jesus Christ, both in quality and in their reach help elevate Christ to one of the greatest people to have lived?

A different but related question: Is there inherent good in any and all words spoken freely?

The famous quote attributed to Patrick Henry, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" is on the fence about the moral status of words disagreed with. On the one hand, maybe he means the words are terrible. But it's hard not to see some good in terrible words because terrible words are the true test of freedom.

What, for instance, would Patrick Henry make of Alex Jones' theory that the children and their families who were shooting victims at Sandy Hook were all actors in a government conspiracy to take away gun rights?

Because Jones failed to respond, two defamations lawsuits were just ruled in favor of the families suing Jones. Would Henry have defended Jones to the point of saying that defamation should be allowed? A very extreme example: If Jones isn't allowed to lie and say that a school shooting is staged by the government, then couldn't that lend the government power to actually stage a school shooting and make it difficult or impossible for anyone to question it?

At any rate, discussions like these blur legality and morality. Most of us can conceive of breaking laws for moral reasons or abiding by the law to pursue an immoral end. Some who believe Jones is a dirt bag may believe Jones should be punished for his words, while others may believe dirt bag that he may be, he should not be punished for his words.

Giuliani and others who unite to steal power by obvious lies are pretty terrible people in my book. They are the greatest threat to the freedom of speech that today, allows them.
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Re: Giuliani reveals under oath no evidence for stolen election.

Post by Chap »

Gadianton wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 4:48 pm
The famous quote attributed to Patrick Henry, "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" is on the fence about the moral status of words disagreed with. On the one hand, maybe he means the words are terrible. But it's hard not to see some good in terrible words because terrible words are the true test of freedom.

What, for instance, would Patrick Henry make of Alex Jones' theory that the children and their families who were shooting victims at Sandy Hook were all actors in a government conspiracy to take away gun rights?
Yup - and see the thread on the Alex Jones court judgement.

I doubt whether a Patrick Henry transferred to the 21st century would be willing to lay down his life to defend the free speech of someone who said 'Jews practice secret rituals in which they drink the blood of Christian babies, and they should all be put into gas chambers'.

Or would that just be 'An American exercising free speech', so long as the speaker was a US citizen?
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Re: Giuliani reveals under oath no evidence for stolen election.

Post by MeDotOrg »

The President's personal attorney admits UNDER OATH to lying about a stolen election. Disbarring Giuliani would seem to be pro forma at this point, but that sad thing is that the majority of Republicans, when faced with the facts, will not change their minds and will not denounce the lies. The Republican Party is letting the lies fester, and the Party won't heal until they have a real 'Come to Jesus' moment about the 2020 election.
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Some Schmo
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Re: Giuliani reveals under oath no evidence for stolen election.

Post by Some Schmo »

Gunnar wrote:
Sat Oct 02, 2021 10:40 am
The saddest part of it is that I don't think many of them really like Trump. They are terrified of losing the support of his fanatical, cult-like base whom Trump has successfully deluded into thinking he can do no wrong.
Cult-like?

Just a small quibble with your post: the Trump base is not cult-like. It is not similar to a cult. It is the very definition of a cult. Potential cult leaders should look at the Trump cult as a template. The dumber and more outrageous the crap that comes out of the leader's mouth, the better for attracting morons.

No rational person can believe his BS. Trump dopes are willing victims in one of the dumbest scams ever executed. Only idiots trust anything Trump says. If that's not a cult, then cults don't exist.
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Gadianton
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Re: Giuliani reveals under oath no evidence for stolen election.

Post by Gadianton »

Chap wrote:I doubt whether a Patrick Henry transferred to the 21st century would be willing to lay down his life to defend the free speech of someone who said 'Jews practice secret rituals in which they drink the blood of Christian babies, and they should all be put into gas chambers'.
Probably. I'm just giving maximum benefit of the doubt to our allowance. Even if we can imagine the most extreme scenario where all speech is tolerated, the tolerated speech is not spared in the moral realm. Vile and reprehensible people are not always criminals.
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Re: Giuliani reveals under oath no evidence for stolen election.

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Moksha wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 4:36 pm
My guess is that nearly all the Big Lie proponents knew their claims were bogus. They advanced the claims anyway because the operating norm established for them was to lie about everything, especially if it benefited Trump.
This is a perfectly tidy explanation of their game plan. They, of course, say the same thing about the Left so perhaps they justify their own impropriety because it’s just fire versus fire at this point in their minds.

What’s concerning is what will happen when they lose the demographic shift, and they have to rely on, as they love to moan about, ‘activist judges’ to do their bidding. I think this is why secession is becoming more and more attractive to them. They realize they can’t maintain the status quo and it’s just a matter of time before they’re politically neutered.

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