Giuliani reveals under oath no evidence for stolen election.

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canpakes
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Re: Giuliani reveals under oath no evidence for stolen election.

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ceeboo wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:03 pm
So, other than Rush, who else belongs on this list of the most evil people to have lived?

Whoever was the first to put pineapple on pizza.
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Re: Giuliani reveals under oath no evidence for stolen election.

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Gad - The total number of people is 100 (not 97 as you kept repeating above) - Meaning, 97 out of the possible 100 would have rejected your recent shift that suggested you were just using hyperbole.
Ah, I see. I misunderstood. So you haven't proposed any reason why I shouldn't consider Rush to be one of the most evil people to have lived.
I was challenging the statements that Limbaugh was one of the most evil people to have lived and that Limbaugh was being compared to Bundy/Hitler. I would have said the same for any talk radio show person - like Howard Stern or Bill Maher
So you just assume all radio talk show hosts could never be among the most evil people who have lived for zero stated reasons. One doesn't need to have listened to the show or know anything about the content or influences within society. This is just something we should assume.
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Re: Giuliani reveals under oath no evidence for stolen election.

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Gadianton wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 7:18 pm
Gad - The total number of people is 100 (not 97 as you kept repeating above) - Meaning, 97 out of the possible 100 would have rejected your recent shift that suggested you were just using hyperbole.
Ah, I see. I misunderstood.
No worries. I own my share of misunderstanding - just wanted to clarify.
So you haven't proposed any reason why I shouldn't consider Rush to be one of the most evil people to have lived.
Proposal For Gad

First, words have meaning. I would ask you to consider what it means to be one of the worst human beings to have lived. After you have considered this, I would like you to also consider that there is a difference (a big difference) between using a word (like evil) and using the same word with a bunch of other words attached to the word (like one of the most evil human being to have lived.)

As a much less serious and significant example: I could say that Gad is a great basketball player and that has a meaning. But, if I were to attach a few more words and say that Gad is one of the greatest basketball players that has ever lived - that has an entirely different meaning. Yes?

Because words have meaning - It would be very irresponsible and irrational for me to write "Gad is one of the greatest basketball players that has ever lived." No? It's very sloppy - it's really unfair - and what then do you do with people like Lebron James or Michael Jordan? Perhaps most importantly, it isn't true. Rather, it's ridiculous!

So, when you suggest "Rush is one of the most evil human beings to have lives" (Now we are talking about a horrific label - we aren't just talking about basketball - the price of poker has gone through the roof) this isn't just sloppy on your part - not just irresponsible - it also isn't true -The suggestion is insane!
So you just assume all radio talk show hosts could never be among the most evil people who have lived for zero stated reasons.
I thought I stated the reason (several times now) but I will try one more time - and only one more time: The reason that all talk show hosts could never be among the most evil people to have lived is because they are all talk show hosts and there are people that have lived like Mao, Hitler and Bundy that have already set the bar for the most evil people to have ever lived. Trying to jam talk show hosts in this group (no matter what they said) is insane!

Your turn: Who are some people (other than rush) that belong on the list of the most evil people to have ever lived? And who are some of the people (other than Rush) that you find comparable to Bundy and Hitler?
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Re: Giuliani reveals under oath no evidence for stolen election.

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Thank you for the clarification Ceeboo. I better see where you're coming from. You're not so concerned if I call Rush "evil", sure, you'd probably disagree, but your real beef is calling him one of the "most evil" people to have lived when considering the likes of Bundy and Hitler. I admit my opinion is an uncommon one. I doubt any of the liberals on this forum share it (I'm not a liberal by the way, I'm a libertarian in a sense that may not exist anymore).

So now I understand what your objection is, next is to understand why:
Ceeboo wrote:The reason that all talk show hosts could never be among the most evil people to have lived is because they are all talk show hosts and there are people that have lived like Mao, Hitler and Bundy that have already set the bar for the most evil people to have ever lived. Trying to jam talk show hosts in this group (no matter what they said) is insane!
So that's not really a very clear reason. I'll admit, most people, perhaps even most people on this forum might agree with you rather than me that I'm going to far. But you haven't explained why "just a talk show host" couldn't be among the most evil people who have ever lived. A talk show host who is so inextricably tied to a political party could never say or influence a society in such a way that he would rank among the most evil people of all time? Why? I agree with you that it seems like fair-minded common sense. But I'd like to see some reasoning behind that if you have any.
Ceeboo wrote:Your turn: Who are some people (other than rush) that belong on the list of the most evil people to have ever lived? And who are some of the people (other than Rush) that you find comparable to Bundy and Hitler?
I'll give you one person to consider for now. Joseph Goebbels.
wiki wrote:chief propagandist for the Nazi Party, and then Reich Minister of Propaganda from 1933 to 1945. He was one of Adolf Hitler's closest and most devoted acolytes, known for his skills in public speaking and his deeply virulent antisemitism, which was evident in his publicly voiced views. He advocated progressively harsher discrimination, including the extermination of the Jews in the Holocaust.
Meet a man so bad, that he was even a bad influence on Hitler himself:
wiki wrote:In 1943, Goebbels began to pressure Hitler to introduce measures that would produce "total war", including closing businesses not essential to the war effort, conscripting women into the labour force, and enlisting men in previously exempt occupations into the Wehrmacht.

wiki wrote:Goebbels' tactic of using provocation to bring attention to the Nazi Party, along with violence at the public party meetings and demonstrations, led the Berlin police to ban the Nazi Party
Basically, a man of the written word and speeches. Kind of like a political talk show host who writes political books.
Goebbels returned home and worked as a private tutor. He also found work as a journalist and was published in the local newspaper. His writing during that time reflected his growing antisemitism and dislike for modern culture.
Like Hitler, Goebbels practised his public speaking skills in front of a mirror. Meetings were preceded by ceremonial marches and singing, and the venues were decorated with party banners. His entrance (almost always late) was timed for maximum emotional impact. Goebbels usually meticulously planned his speeches ahead of time, using pre-planned and choreographed inflection and gestures, but he was also able to improvise and adapt his presentation to make a good connection with his audience.[63][62] He used loudspeakers, decorative flames, uniforms, and marches to attract attention to speeches.[64]
Among the paper's favourite targets was the Jewish Deputy Chief of the Berlin Police Bernhard Weiß. Goebbels gave him the derogatory nickname "Isidore" and subjected him to a relentless campaign of Jew-baiting in the hope of provoking a crackdown he could then exploit.[70] Goebbels continued to try to break into the literary world, with a revised version of his book Michael finally being published, and the unsuccessful production of two of his plays (Der Wanderer and Die Saat (The Seed)). The latter was his final attempt at playwriting.
Last edited by Gadianton on Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Giuliani reveals under oath no evidence for stolen election.

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ceeboo wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:02 pm
The reason that all talk show hosts could never be among the most evil people to have lived is because they are all talk show hosts and there are people that have lived like Mao, Hitler and Bundy that have already set the bar for the most evil people to have ever lived.

If only Hitler had known about this ‘out’, he would have just taken calls during his radio addresses.

But, more seriously -
Goebbels believed that radio was the most effective way of putting over a message. The public had to leave home to go to the cinema while some simply did not read a newspaper and Goebbels was less confident that newspapers were the perfect form of spreading the message.

Radio broadcasts played home the Nazi ideals – national pride, patriotism, pride in Hitler, Aryan pride etc. All households that possessed a radio had to pay 2 marks a month to cover the cost of radio broadcasting. However, to ensure that all households could have a radio, Goebbels arranged for the production of two cheap types of radios priced at 35 and 72 marks that were known as ‘People’s Receivers’.

Goebbels also used radio broadcasts to spread the word of Nazism abroad. He wanted to convey to the world the idea that Nazism was an acceptable political idea and his first radio broadcasts were performances by some of Germany’s top orchestras and opera singers. Once this approach had bedded down, he introduced a system whereby little messages were broadcast piece by piece – spreading the words of Hitler in a minimalistic way at first. The broadcasts covered all of Western Europe and a huge broadcasting station at Seesen, near Berlin, ensured that broadcasts could be heard around the world. By 1938, shortwave broadcasts were being transmitted 24 hours a day in twelve different languages.
https://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/n ... i-germany/
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Re: Giuliani reveals under oath no evidence for stolen election.

Post by ceeboo »

Gadianton wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:42 pm
Thank you for the clarification Ceeboo.
You're welcome.
I'll give you one person to consider for now. Joseph Goebbels.
Full transparency: I was hoping/thinking that you were going to give me an example of someone a bit more recent and someone who wasn't directly tied to Hitler. Like someone involved in American politics (like Rush was) - Maybe I can toss a few names out and you can tell if they are on your list of the most evil people to have lived? Trump? Biden? Tucker? Maxine Waters? Al Sharpton? Ted Cruz? Pelosi? Either of the Cuomo brothers? Don Lemon? Harris? Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez? Cotton? Maddow? Anyone from The View? Joy Reid?

Any of these folks comparable to Hitler/Rush/Bundy?

Any of these folks on your list of the most evil people to have lived?
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Re: Giuliani reveals under oath no evidence for stolen election.

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ceeboo wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 9:01 pm
Trump? Biden? Tucker? Maxine Waters? Al Sharpton? Ted Cruz? Pelosi? Either of the Cuomo brothers? Don Lemon? Harris? Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez? Cotton? Maddow? Anyone from The View? Joy Reid?

Any of these folks comparable to Hitler/Rush/Bundy?

Any of these folks on your list of the most evil people to have lived?

Tucker is trying hard to make the list. Give him time.

Since you mentioned him, Trump lives to inject disunity and dishonesty daily into American life with his never-ending ‘rallies’ filled with anger and accusations, and his nonstop claims of a stolen election. Not putting him on any list, but as someone who once held the highest office in the land, you’d figure that he’d at least try once to do something that would serve to unite Americans, instead of nearly always speaking to divide them for his personal gain.
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Re: Giuliani reveals under oath no evidence for stolen election.

Post by Gadianton »

Ceeboo wrote:Full transparency: I was hoping/thinking that you were going to give me an example of someone a bit more recent and someone who wasn't directly tied to Hitler
Right. Baby steps. If you can't see how a propagandist, because it's just propaganda and words -- what political pundits who happen to have talk shows are all about -- can't possibly ever make the list of the world's most evil then it's a hard stop.

Am I insane for suggesting Goebbels or not?

If you answer that, then I'll answer your question about other contemporary figures.
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Re: Giuliani reveals under oath no evidence for stolen election.

Post by honorentheos »

ceeboo wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 9:01 pm
Gadianton wrote:
Sun Oct 03, 2021 8:42 pm
Thank you for the clarification Ceeboo.
You're welcome.
I'll give you one person to consider for now. Joseph Goebbels.
Full transparency: I was hoping/thinking that you were going to give me an example of someone a bit more recent and someone who wasn't directly tied to Hitler.
Stephan Miller.

I am one of those Gad mentioned who wouldn't put Rush Limbaugh in the highest echelon of most evil people of all time because...well. That's unknowable and not really useful. People are capable of horrific acts coming from intensely dark places. Industrial scale genocides and serial killers are manifestations of human evil. But I think there are worse individuals when it comes to being truly horrifically evil. Professional killers and torturers working for cartels commit acts that are pure evil that we never hear about. Yet human history has uncountable numbers of such people. Is Genghis Khan one of the most evil people who ever lived? Hard to say. Is he responsible for numerous devastating and inhuman acts in his time? Absolutely. It seems best to avoid the superlatives and focus on what is being discussed.

So where I think I agree with the spirit of what Gad is saying is regarding the influence Rush has had on society and the unquantifiable yet real consequences of that influence. Regarding just the subject of climate change denial alone it is fair to say that if Rush influenced US politicians and the public to prevent proactive responses to climate change when we could have bent the curve away from many of the now unavoidable destructive consequences, the man has contributed to horrific suffering and loss of life in ways inaccessible to most people because he had a platform to spread this memic virus that is climate change denial.

These memic viruses that infect social groups and spread through the host society to cause critical masses to run to their own destruction like rats with Toxoplasma gondii are a thing and radio talk show hosts profit off spreading them. That's a type of evil, in my opinion. And it's at a level inaccessible to most people yet the consequences of that evil are far reaching. That's where I think Gad and I may be in agreement.
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Re: Giuliani reveals under oath no evidence for stolen election.

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Thanks Honor for your response.

My unique evaluation of Rush considers things like, as Alf pointed out, being a central author of what has been a horrible populist, divisive, and anti-hero turn in today's conservativism. His plight against women and same-sex relations is its own legacy. His significant plight against climate-change is a unique contribution to the possible doom of the planet. Where guys like Alex Jones might inflame with greater virtuosity, Rush was like the "Beatles" of misinformation infotainment. Alex and all the Fox guys are all his legacy. But all that considered, I might yet have him on the fence of the world's most evil people and not quite secure him a spot. What pushed him over the edge for me was his Covid denial. My reading of the situation at the time, is that as on several issues, Trump isn't sure which way he swings on the pandemic. He's had impulses to be the nation's savior from the pandemic. I mean, hell, it's a pandemic, I never would have guessed it was something that would be political as a matter unfolding in real-time. Rush used his distinctive influence as the "medal of freedom" winner (or whatever) within Republican party to go all in on pandemic skepticism, which shaped the trajectory of the overall denialism and horrific policy responses of his party, such as within his home in Florida.

Imagine if Rush had just said, crap, this is serious, people are dying, let's get past this thing and continue the 'fun' on the other stuff. He's the one person who could have turned this in the other direction since there was really a thin precedent for denialism. Plenty of Republican leaders including Trump were fine with taking it seriously if that's what the party was agreed to do, and many did and do take it seriously. He could have been like Lord Vader at the end of Return of the Jedi and performed the last act of his life that perhaps would have redeemed all else, at least somewhat. But no, he went to his death bed popularizing himself and his brand at the expense of so many dying in real time, not mere possible deaths generations later.
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