Typical Millennial bank statement

[Gadianton]

I've never bothered to educate myself on the insurance problems here. I have to say, I've never known anyone in real life to have an 8k bill.

In CA, if you make below a certain amount you can get on medi-Cal for free, and that turns out to be better insurance than I have; and I have very good insurance. Well, I can't say that's true in every case. It may be worse in the case of in-between procedures.

At my new home, I was comparing notes with my fellow walkers a while back as I was shocked at how much costs had gone up for emergency procedures. I went over the numbers with a guy who had recently taken a child to ER, and at the time he didn't have insurance. He braced for the blow, but then was told if no insurance he gets different paperwork, and the costs seemed comparable if not less than had he had insurance. He has insurance now.

I'd think the only way for hospitals to stay afloat is to somehow pass on the costs of uninsured people to insured people and their employers, in addition to whatever the state throws their way.

So the US does have a kind of de facto socialized healthcare. I assume it doesn't always work out like it did for my friend. But, I'd also think that Ajax, given he's somehow paying for the uninsured anyway, would be open to new ideas also. The middle layer of rich insurance companies seems like the first target for review.

[Alf'Omega]

I'm tired of talking to young people and always hearing the same ol story about how much they can't stand their student loans. One kid worked with me for three weeks and said he was in debt $50,000 after graduating UVA. He couldn't/can't find a job in his profession so he's trying to become a police officer or firefighter. I know another kid $20,000 in debt and still has a semester left at ODU before he graduates. I'm sorry,! But that's insane.

The problem isn't the college education, the problem is the way they managed it. Not all college degrees are created equal.

A plumber can make $80 to $120 an hour. HVAC the same.

Uh, sure. On a job that lasts 2-3 hours, twice per week maybe. They're not making that kind of money working 40 hrs.

Hell!! I know a guy who caulks windows for a living and makes $500 to $600.

Horse manure. I pay people to renovate properties all the flippin time. Caulking windows is one of the least skill-intensive duties a handyman could be asked to do.

It seems like so many people are going to college then finding a job that has nothing to do with the degree they got.

Yes, and this isn't just a Millenial thing.

There are so many jobs out there especially now that the internet has made it possible to sell anywhere in the world. All it takes is imagination and Common Sense and it really isn't that hard to succeed.

Then why are you still hammering shingles?

The reason I love the construction industry so much is there aren't any young people interested in manual labor anymore.

There never were a lot of young people interested in that.

[Some Schmo]

But for the life of me I cannot see why you put up with the way health care is run in your country.

We have to put up with it for the same reason we had to endure Trump: ignorance. Too many people in this country have been convinced that socialized medicine will turn the US into Venezuela, primarily because GOP congress-critters get free health care, don't give a crap about Americans, and lie their asses off to scare people into keeping things the way they are. And of course, the "conservatives" in this country swallow their "leaders" crap like it's water in a dry desert.

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

But for the life of me I cannot see why you put up with the way health care is run in your country.

We have to put up with it for the same reason we had to endure Trump: ignorance. Too many people in this country have been convinced that socialized medicine will turn the US into Venezuela, primarily because GOP congress-critters get free health care, don't give a crap about Americans, and lie their asses off to scare people into keeping things the way they are. And of course, the "conservatives" in this country swallow their "leaders" crap like it's water in a dry desert.

Well. If I were king for a decade this would be the very first thing I’d change. I’ve already converted a few reasonable Conservatives to the notion that we ought to cut out the insurance companies, pool our resources like we’re doing anyway, and have a point-of-service cost of $0. My BIL who’s paying something like a $1000/month for family insurance, and had to navigate the confusing insurance-provider system already, agrees that his overall costs would drop significantly. The ‘hidden’ cost to him is the up front deductible and, I forget the term right now (maybe the yearly deductible?), the amount of money you have to eat before your deductible is zero. Is astounding how much you have to pay despite already paying a huge monthly premium. It’s chaotic and worrisome.

- Doc

[Chap]

I've never bothered to educate myself on the insurance problems here. I have to say, I've never known anyone in real life to have an 8k bill.

In CA, if you make below a certain amount you can get on medi-Cal for free, and that turns out to be better insurance than I have; and I have very good insurance. Well, I can't say that's true in every case. It may be worse in the case of in-between procedures.

At my new home, I was comparing notes with my fellow walkers a while back as I was shocked at how much costs had gone up for emergency procedures. I went over the numbers with a guy who had recently taken a child to ER, and at the time he didn't have insurance. He braced for the blow, but then was told if no insurance he gets different paperwork, and the costs seemed comparable if not less than had he had insurance. He has insurance now.

I'd think the only way for hospitals to stay afloat is to somehow pass on the costs of uninsured people to insured people and their employers, in addition to whatever the state throws their way.

So the US does have a kind of de facto socialized healthcare. I assume it doesn't always work out like it did for my friend. But, I'd also think that Ajax, given he's somehow paying for the uninsured anyway, would be open to new ideas also. The middle layer of rich insurance companies seems like the first target for review.

Hmm. Well, this was three years ago, and the costs paid by the patient were a lot more than 8k:

In fact "private insurance covered most of the $877,000 bill, but her family was responsible for $51,000."

So even if you have insurance, you may still have to take what is a big financial hit by anyone's standards.

Why does it cost $32,093 just to give birth in America?

Stella Apo Osae-Twum and her husband did everything by the book. They went to a hospital covered by insurance, saw an obstetrician in their plan, but when her three sons – triplets – were born prematurely, bills started rolling in.

The hospital charged her family $877,000 in total.

“When the bills started coming, to be very honest, I was an emotional wreck,” said Apo Osae-Twum. “And this is in the midst of trying to take care of three babies who were premature.”

America is the most expensive nation in the world to give birth. When things go wrong – from pre-eclampsia to premature birth – costs can quickly spiral into the hundreds of thousands of dollars. While the data is limited, experts in medical debt say the costs of childbirth factor into thousands of family bankruptcies in America each year.

It’s nearly impossible to put a price tag on giving birth in America, since costs vary dramatically by state and hospital. But one 2013 study by the the advocacy group Childbirth Connection found that, on average, hospitals charged $32,093 for an uncomplicated vaginal birth and newborn care, and $51,125 for a standard caesarean section and newborn care. Insurance typically covers a large chunk of those costs, but families are still often on the hook for thousands of dollars.

Another estimate from the International Federation of Health Plans put the average amount insurers paid for a vaginal birth in the US at $10,808 in 2015. That is quintuple the IFHP estimate for another industrialized nation, Spain, where it costs $1,950 to deliver a child. The amount insurers pay for births in America is lower than the amount billed by hospitals because insurers negotiate lower prices.

Even the luxurious accommodations provided to the Duchess of Cambridge for the birth of the royal family’s daughter Princess Charlotte – believed to have cost up to $18,000 – were cheaper than many births in America.

Despite these high costs, the US consistently ranks poorly in health outcomes for mothers and infants. The US rate of infant mortality is 6.1 for every 1,000 live births, higher than Slovakia and Hungary, and nearly three times the rate of Japan and Finland. The US also has the worst rate of maternal mortality in the developed world. That means America is simultaneously the most expensive and one of the riskiest industrialized nations in which to have children.

American families rarely shoulder the full costs of childbirth on their own – but still pay far more than in other industrialized nations. Nearly half of American mothers are covered by Medicaid, a program available to low income households that covers nearly all birth costs. But people with private insurance still regularly pay thousands of dollars in co-pays, deductibles and partially reimbursed services when they give birth. Childbirth Connection put the average out of pocket childbirth costs for mothers with insurance at $3,400 in 2013.

In Apo Osae-Twum’s case, private insurance covered most of the $877,000 bill, but her family was responsible for $51,000.

Apo Osae-Twum was the victim of what is called “surprise billing”. In these cases, patients have no way of knowing whether an ambulance company, emergency room physician, anesthesiologist – or, in her case, a half-dozen neonatologists – are members of the patient’s insurance plan.

Even though Apo Osae-Twum went to a hospital covered by her insurance, none of the neonatologists who attended to her sons were “in-network”. Therefore the insurance reimbursed far less of their bills.

There are few studies that estimate the number of families who go bankrupt from this type of unexpected expense. One of the best estimates is now outdated – conducted 10 years ago. But one of the authors of that research, Dr Steffie Woolhandler, estimates as many as 56,000 families each year still go bankrupt from adding a new family member through birth or adoption.

[Physics Guy]

The $8000 medical bill isn't a Millennial problem. It's an American problem.

Sure it is [a Millennial problem]. Boomers didn't grow up having to worry about bankruptcy if they got sick.

American Boomers have to worry about it now, do they not? Millennials in other countries still don't.

[Alf'Omega]

Not so much. Most Boomers are retired or on the verge of retirement, and qualify for medicare.

[Atlanticmike]

I'm tired of talking to young people and always hearing the same ol story about how much they can't stand their student loans. One kid worked with me for three weeks and said he was in debt $50,000 after graduating UVA. He couldn't/can't find a job in his profession so he's trying to become a police officer or firefighter. I know another kid $20,000 in debt and still has a semester left at ODU before he graduates. I'm sorry,! But that's insane.

The problem isn't the college education, the problem is the way they managed it. Not all college degrees are created equal.

A plumber can make $80 to $120 an hour. HVAC the same.

Uh, sure. On a job that lasts 2-3 hours, twice per week maybe. They're not making that kind of money working 40 hrs.

Hell!! I know a guy who caulks windows for a living and makes $500 to $600.

Horse manure. I pay people to renovate properties all the flippin time. Caulking windows is one of the least skill-intensive duties a handyman could be asked to do.

It seems like so many people are going to college then finding a job that has nothing to do with the degree they got.

Yes, and this isn't just a Millenial thing.

There are so many jobs out there especially now that the internet has made it possible to sell anywhere in the world. All it takes is imagination and Common Sense and it really isn't that hard to succeed.

Then why are you still hammering shingles?

The reason I love the construction industry so much is there aren't any young people interested in manual labor anymore.

There never were a lot of young people interested in that.

Licensed plumbers can make $90ish an hour all day everyday. A plumber with a helper can charge $125 an hour. Couple of weeks ago I removed an attic pull down stair for a plumber buddy of mine so he could remove a huge water heater. When I went back to install the stair, he said he had 11hrs in the job and charged $1400 labor. The homeowner was more than pleased to pay him.

Professional window caulkers, not painters or a handyman, can make big bucks caulking windows. A typical 3000sqft house can cost $1200 to $2000 to caulk all the brick openings. Most companies in my area charge $2.50 a linear foot. One 3'0"x5'6" window cost around $40 to caulk. If they use a urethane caulk you get a five year warranty. Silicone caulk you get a 15 year warranty.

I'm still roofing because I love it! Plus I make more money than my families GP. It pisses him off. Besides, I don't nail many shingles these days. I mostly do flat work and flashing because that's what I like to do. I'll admit my wife does all the hard work because she deals with the books, taxes, insurance, insurance, insurance and ordering. All I have to do is deal with a bunch of knuckleheads and go to appointments. Why would I quit?

Less and less young people are turning to construction for a profession. They just don't want to work hard. They want a job that involves typing on a keyboard which is fine if that's what they want to do. Like I said. Great for us older contractors.

[Gadianton]

Chap,

that's a good example and aligns with my experience. Last year I went to ER for what was not a very big deal. I guess I was a snowflake for not toughing it out. Well, my family was insisting and so I figured what the hell. Beautiful facility a minute down the road, like futuristic, although I didn't think the on-call doctor knew that much. They really pushed for me to take advantage of every amenity and I refused as much as I could, keeping a tally in my head of what this was going to cost. Was there about 1.5 hours. I estimated a 3.5k bill, and that was about right. But six months later the rest of the bill came. nearly 20k. Insurance paid all but about 350$. The CAT scan was 14k. A non-emergency CAT I think is about 1.5k. I figured I was the only one there, and those machines are expensive, but turns out a new one really isn't that much. And how to figure out what the bill even was talking about? Then, what I did pay, I paid to three different institutions. It appeared there were avenues to dispute the bill and get help. In this case it wasn't worth my time. One of the line items was a 2500$ discount for prompt payment on the first round of bills. wtf?

So your post lines up with my experience. However, it doesn't explain where this money is actually going.

[Gadianton]

The trades can be a great option. Not everyone is getting rich, but if you work at it, you can go independent easier than with other employment options, which means you can then hire a person or two, and scale your efforts and make money off the people you manage, rather than at a white color job where you might make less than your employees as a low-level manager or make barely more. My right-wing friend is a retired builder and he's loaded. Of course, he did have family who took him under the wing early on to get him going. A friend from college who is effeminate and a major liberal from a family of Phds did graduate, but liked manual labor, and ultimately ended up with his own HVAC company. He does pretty well, but because he has a crew he has lots of flexibility and can vacation for long periods and keep things going behind the scenes. Given his intellect, HVAC was a good option because not everyone who succeeds at window washing and caulking will do well at that.

the reality still is that there are a lot of broke handyman types out there, including plumbers, and if you're going to make money washing windows and caulking, you're going to have to have some good business sense and significant drive.

Another option for young people that I've recommended is fast-food. Get a job at McDonalds, work your way up to manger, be a manager for a couple years and then if you don't see a future in that industry, use that manager experience as your college equivalent to get a corporate job. There are countless BS corporate jobs that pay decent and great benefits, require low effort and skill but just need the foot in the door.