Roe on the Chopping Block

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Father Francis
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Re: Roe on the Chopping Block

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Some Schmo wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:44 pm
Xenophon wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 2:21 pm
I hope so but I remain skeptical. One because I'm not entirely certain Democrats well successfully leverage this as the rallying cry they should. Two because the general public is woefully unaware of what their own states laws would look like if Roe v Wade was overturned. Perhaps seeing those trigger laws kick in will have an impact on people, but who knows.

Unfortunately abortion also ranks fairly low on most people's political radar, despite the hype it seems to have each election cycle. Honestly I think the latest laws in Texas is the most "fired up" I've actually seen regular people about it and the Mississippi law got significantly less media attention than it.
Perhaps you're right. I suppose the reason I think this will backfire on the GOP is that only 24% for the nation wants Roe overturned, according to an article I just read. Also, elections are decided on the margins. It only needs to swing a small percentage of voters to wipe out GOP hopefuls in the midterms.

You realize we have an abysmal voter turnout and that the minority of right wing nutjobs are more likely to vote than progressives, especially in the midterms. The "centrists" are more likely to vote than the progressives too, and they lean right.

What they don't realize that Reaganism is slowly sliding us into third world status. They complain about the poor people "ruining" cities like San Francisco, (nevermind the heroin and meth problems in the South...) but they push policies to make it worse. Inflation bothers them, but they also claimed that decades of wage stagnation was necessary. They said it would stop inflation. Inflation still happened, and wages stagnated. Prices went up, wages didn't.

Look at the housing crisis...
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Re: Roe on the Chopping Block

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Atlanticmike wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:26 am
About time. This is going to be great news for so many Americans. We need to protect the unborn.
Yes, the cult of the unborn is about to be amply rewarded for its faith and sacrifices. It is really fascinating. Bizarre and fascinating. That said, the earliest church manual, the Didache, was anti-abortion. So this comes from a very old tradition in Christianity. The pagans practiced abortion, silphium being used to abort babies to the point that the plant became impossible to find. Nero was given the last silphium plant as a gift. Christians set themselves apart by forbidding abortion AMONG THEIR OWN.

What is pernicious here is the enforcement of this prohibition on all. The secular state, which the United States is, provided room for people of differing beliefs to live together and follow the dictates of their own consciences. Christian conservatism in this country is nothing less than a quest to establish some form of theocracy—making others live by your beliefs.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Some Schmo
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Re: Roe on the Chopping Block

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Kishkumen wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 12:41 pm
What is pernicious here is the enforcement of this prohibition on all. The secular state, which the United States is, provided room for people of differing beliefs to live together and follow the dictates of their own consciences. Christian conservatism in this country is nothing less than a quest to establish some form of theocracy—making others live by your beliefs.
This is exactly why I am anti-religion. It's not enough for these assholes to pretend to live by a particular morality. They have to foist their BS on everyone else.

I only criticize the religion I'm aware of. Christ, I wish people would keep that crap to themselves.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

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Physics Guy
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Re: Roe on the Chopping Block

Post by Physics Guy »

The problem is that the people who are opposed to abortion don't just think that abortion is bad like wearing too many earrings or not covering your hair. Anti-abortionists believe that abortion is murder.

Nobody should be okay with murder being committed by people who don't share their beliefs about murder being wrong. Murder being a crime isn't something from which you can just opt out if you don't share the belief. You can insist all you want that you don't see anything wrong with murder—you're still going away if you do it, and rightly so.

I don't agree that abortion is murder. But if someone really does think it is, then I don't see how to condemn them for trying to outlaw abortion for everyone. I think I can fault anti-abortionists is for being much too quick to conclude that abortion is murder, but I don't blame them for being wanna-be theocrats. I support the principle of outlawing murder universally, regardless of individual belief.
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Marcus
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Re: Roe on the Chopping Block

Post by Marcus »

Physics Guy wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:09 pm
I support the principle of outlawing murder universally, regardless of individual belief.
Agreed. And I think you implied this already, but if individual belief is what is being used by some to define abortion as murder, then that definition of murder comes from an individual belief that should not be treated as universal. Universal outlawing of murder would seem to require a universal definition of murder.
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Some Schmo
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Re: Roe on the Chopping Block

Post by Some Schmo »

Physics Guy wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:09 pm
The problem is that the people who are opposed to abortion don't just think that abortion is bad like wearing too many earrings or not covering your hair. Anti-abortionists believe that abortion is murder.

Nobody should be okay with murder being committed by people who don't share their beliefs about murder being wrong. Murder being a crime isn't something from which you can just opt out if you don't share the belief. You can insist all you want that you don't see anything wrong with murder—you're still going away if you do it, and rightly so.

I don't agree that abortion is murder. But if someone really does think it is, then I don't see how to condemn them for trying to outlaw abortion for everyone. I think I can fault anti-abortionists is for being much too quick to conclude that abortion is murder, but I don't blame them for being wanna-be theocrats. I support the principle of outlawing murder universally, regardless of individual belief.
Which is why laws should be based on science and evidence, not people's intuited ideas about the way the universe works.

If abortion is murder, so is male masturbation.
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Kishkumen
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Re: Roe on the Chopping Block

Post by Kishkumen »

Physics Guy wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:09 pm
The problem is that the people who are opposed to abortion don't just think that abortion is bad like wearing too many earrings or not covering your hair. Anti-abortionists believe that abortion is murder.

Nobody should be okay with murder being committed by people who don't share their beliefs about murder being wrong. Murder being a crime isn't something from which you can just opt out if you don't share the belief. You can insist all you want that you don't see anything wrong with murder—you're still going away if you do it, and rightly so.

I don't agree that abortion is murder. But if someone really does think it is, then I don't see how to condemn them for trying to outlaw abortion for everyone. I think I can fault anti-abortionists is for being much too quick to conclude that abortion is murder, but I don't blame them for being wanna-be theocrats. I support the principle of outlawing murder universally, regardless of individual belief.
True. Can you help me out by showing me where abortion is equated with murder in the Bible?

If this is it, then I am unimpressed with any such argument:
Exodus 21 wrote:22 ¶ If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman’s husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.
From what I can see here, if two men are fighting, and a pregnant woman is somehow hurt in the struggle such that she miscarries the child, then the man causing the miscarriage will be brought before a judge by the husband and forced to pay some recompense.

In this, I do not see "abortion is murder." It is clear that the unborn child in this instance is treated more as property than as a full human person. I just don't see this scripture as justification for treating abortion as murder.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Morley
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Re: Roe on the Chopping Block

Post by Morley »

Some Schmo wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:20 pm
If abortion is murder, so is male masturbation.
I'm pretty sure this is the last word on this particular topic:

https://youtu.be/fUspLVStPbk?t=54
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Physics Guy
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Re: Roe on the Chopping Block

Post by Physics Guy »

As I said, I don't agree that abortion is murder. I also don't see that the Bible teaches it is. I know a very conservative evangelical pastor who is not a strict pro-lifer precisely because of that passage in Exodus. I find the whole concept of scriptural authority bizarre, but a lot of pro-lifers seem to accept it. I think they're wrong about scriptural authority but also wrong about exegesis.

I just don't think that attempted theocracy is the charge that will stick against pro-lifers. Given their belief about abortion, they have to be right to try to forbid abortion for everyone. They're not trying to make everyone go to Church on Sunday. They're trying—according to their lights—to stop everyone from committing murder.

I do think they're badly wrong. They are wrong to come to conclusions about what is or isn't murder in the way that they do. I'm just saying that one should understand how they are wrong, and not fight the wrong battle.
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Jersey Girl
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Re: Roe on the Chopping Block

Post by Jersey Girl »

Atlanticmike wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 2:26 am
K Graham wrote:
Thu Dec 02, 2021 1:47 pm
This could actually be happening.
About time. This is going to be great news for so many Americans. We need to protect the unborn.
Let me know when we start protecting the living.
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

Slava Ukraini!
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