Roe on the Chopping Block

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Father Francis
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Re: Roe on the Chopping Block

Post by Father Francis »

Morley wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:31 pm
Some Schmo wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:20 pm
If abortion is murder, so is male masturbation.
I'm pretty sure this is the last word on this particular topic:

https://youtu.be/fUspLVStPbk?t=54
Beat me to it. Such a classic skit. Same with the other part where the Protestant husband describes kinky stuff he could do with his wife, but doesn't.
Gunnar
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Re: Roe on the Chopping Block

Post by Gunnar »

Father Francis wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 7:26 am
Morley wrote:
Sat Dec 04, 2021 6:31 pm

I'm pretty sure this is the last word on this particular topic:

https://youtu.be/fUspLVStPbk?t=54
Beat me to it. Such a classic skit. Same with the other part where the Protestant husband describes kinky stuff he could do with his wife, but doesn't
He wasn't the only one who beat you to it! ;) viewtopic.php?p=40022#p40022

I agree that the extreme, unconditional, zero tolerance, banning of all abortions is not only a serious, misogynous violation of a woman's right to control and take care of her own body's medical needs, it is nearly as unjust and irrational as legally banning masturbation. But there have been and still are ultra-religious politicians who want to make even that a crime -- even in the privacy of one's own home!

Besides that, it is not true that the Catholic Church always prohibited abortion. With the exception of the three-year period 1588–1591, abortion before quickening was not prohibited by Catholic canon law until 1869.[13]: 362–364  Early Catholics disagreed whether ensoulment happened at conception or (as in Roman tradition) at some later point, and thus whether early abortion was murder, a minor sin, or morally neutral.
See also;
The history of Catholic teaching on abortion isn’t as clear cut as you think

Its position has hardly been “unchangeable” throughout the past two millennia.
Even today, the Church's position is not necessarily as absolute as most people think.
FOR SOME, THE PRIMACY OF CONSCIENCE GIVES SUFFICIENT ROOM WITHIN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH FOR INDIVIDUALS TO MAKE UP THEIR OWN MINDS ON ABORTION.
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
K Graham
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Re: Roe on the Chopping Block

Post by K Graham »

Consider this argument

Whenever abortion comes up, I have a question I’ve been asking for ten years now of the ‘Life begins at Conception’ crowd. In ten years, no one has EVER answered it honestly. It’s a simple scenario with two outcomes. No one ever wants to pick one, because the correct answer destroys their argument. And there IS a correct answer, which is why the pro-life crowd hates the question.

Here it is. You’re in a fertility clinic. Why isn’t important. The fire alarm goes off. You run for the exit. As you run down this hallway, you hear a child screaming from behind a door. You throw open the door and find a five-year-old child crying for help. They’re in one corner of the room. In the other corner, you spot a frozen container labeled ‘1000 Viable Human Embryos.’

The smoke is rising. You start to choke. You know you can grab one or the other, but not both before you succumb to smoke inhalation and die, saving no one. Do you A) save the child, or B) save the thousand embryos? There is no ‘C.’ ‘C means you all die.

In a decade of arguing with anti-abortion people about the definition of human life, I have never gotten a single straight A or B answer to this question. And I never will. They will never answer honestly, because we all instinctively understand the right answer is ‘A.’

A human child is worth more than a thousand embryos. Or ten thousand. Or a million. Because they are not the same, not morally, not ethically, not biologically. This question absolutely evicerates [sic] their arguments, and their refusal to answer confirms that they know it to be true.

No one, anywhere, actually believes an embryo is equivalent to a child. That person does not exist. They are lying to you. They are lying to you to try and evoke an emotional response, a paternal response, using false-equivalency.

No one believes life begins at conception. No one believes embryos are babies, or children. Those who claim to are trying to manipulate you so they can control women. Don’t let them. Use this question to call them out. Reveal them for what they are. Demand they answer your question, and when they don’t, slap that big ol’ Scarlet P of the Patriarchy on them. The end.
"I am not an American ... In my view premarital sex should be illegal" - Ajax18
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Jersey Girl
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Re: Roe on the Chopping Block

Post by Jersey Girl »

K Graham wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:45 pm
Consider this argument

Whenever abortion comes up, I have a question I’ve been asking for ten years now of the ‘Life begins at Conception’ crowd. In ten years, no one has EVER answered it honestly. It’s a simple scenario with two outcomes. No one ever wants to pick one, because the correct answer destroys their argument. And there IS a correct answer, which is why the pro-life crowd hates the question.

Here it is. You’re in a fertility clinic. Why isn’t important. The fire alarm goes off. You run for the exit. As you run down this hallway, you hear a child screaming from behind a door. You throw open the door and find a five-year-old child crying for help. They’re in one corner of the room. In the other corner, you spot a frozen container labeled ‘1000 Viable Human Embryos.’

The smoke is rising. You start to choke. You know you can grab one or the other, but not both before you succumb to smoke inhalation and die, saving no one. Do you A) save the child, or B) save the thousand embryos? There is no ‘C.’ ‘C means you all die.

In a decade of arguing with anti-abortion people about the definition of human life, I have never gotten a single straight A or B answer to this question. And I never will. They will never answer honestly, because we all instinctively understand the right answer is ‘A.’

A human child is worth more than a thousand embryos. Or ten thousand. Or a million. Because they are not the same, not morally, not ethically, not biologically. This question absolutely evicerates [sic] their arguments, and their refusal to answer confirms that they know it to be true.

No one, anywhere, actually believes an embryo is equivalent to a child. That person does not exist. They are lying to you. They are lying to you to try and evoke an emotional response, a paternal response, using false-equivalency.

No one believes life begins at conception. No one believes embryos are babies, or children. Those who claim to are trying to manipulate you so they can control women. Don’t let them. Use this question to call them out. Reveal them for what they are. Demand they answer your question, and when they don’t, slap that big ol’ Scarlet P of the Patriarchy on them. The end.
Grab the child and drag the container if it's got a handle on it.
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Roe on the Chopping Block

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

K Graham wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 2:45 pm
Consider this argument
It’s a false equivalence question meant to put the pro-lifer at a disadvantage. For example, if you had to choose between your wife and your child which one would you choose? Or what about your child and five adult strangers? All sorts of unfair inferences can be made depending on your choice. So, this is a bad faith argument based on a bad analogy. It’s a ‘gotcha’ that doesn’t really address the the fundamental issue - do pro-life people look at fertilized eggs as human beings? They say they do, but I don’t believe it. If we’re literally murdering millions of human beings there’d be a civil war. If atheists decided to cull our country’s population by 20% and just started executing men, women, and children there’d be civil war.

Why? Because for most murdering other human beings is so intolerable they’d take up arms to end that kind of evil. Hell, we did it to end slavery, or a state’s right to keep using chattel slavery.

So, why don’t religious people fight, literally fight, to end the wholesale slaughter of innocent human beings? You’ll hear all sorts of apologetics for their cowardice, but at the end of the day the value they place on in utero human beings versus out of utero human beings is fundamental. One is a legitimate human being worth defending with force, and the other is an abstraction worth defending in court. That ought to tell anyone thinking about abortion and its morality, or lack thereof, a fairly clear idea where it falls on the scales of justice. It’s a farce.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Roe on the Chopping Block

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Well, this was something to behold:

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout ... _pregnant/
Congressman Madison Cawthorn refers to pregnant women as "Earthen vessels, sanctified by Almighty God” during a speech demanding the end of the Roe v. Wade and reproductive rights for women, lest "Science darkens the souls of the left"
“The genocide of abortion.”

-_-

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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canpakes
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Re: Roe on the Chopping Block

Post by canpakes »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:07 am
Well, this was something to behold:

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout ... _pregnant/
Congressman Madison Cawthorn refers to pregnant women as "Earthen vessels, sanctified by Almighty God” during a speech demanding the end of the Roe v. Wade and reproductive rights for women, lest "Science darkens the souls of the left"
Of all people…
Throughout his precipitous ascent to power, Cawthorn has also been trailed by reports of sexual misconduct. Over the past week, the Washington Post, CNN, and Buzzfeed News have all reported on the allegations against him from former classmates, who accused the congressman of making unwanted advances on them and putting them in uncomfortable situations. This is not the first time such claims have been made public. In October, over 150 former students from Cawthorn’s alma mater, Patrick Henry College, signed a letter saying that his predatory behavior was well-known around campus and that women were warned not to be alone with him.
https://www.thecut.com/2021/03/a-runnin ... thorn.html
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Kishkumen
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Re: Roe on the Chopping Block

Post by Kishkumen »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 12:07 am
Well, this was something to behold:

https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout ... _pregnant/
Congressman Madison Cawthorn refers to pregnant women as "Earthen vessels, sanctified by Almighty God” during a speech demanding the end of the Roe v. Wade and reproductive rights for women, lest "Science darkens the souls of the left"
Anyone group that pursues a theological argument designed to lead to the imposition of its beliefs over the reasonable beliefs of other groups will reap the whirlwind one day. It is when people insist that their unique interpretation of the world is the only one that should count for everyone that they start down the path to tyranny. All groups with such beliefs should pray that they not be able to impose their views on others but that they be able to persuade others that their views are just and reasonable. If they fail, they should be thankful that no one can impose beliefs on them.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Re: Roe on the Chopping Block

Post by Moksha »

Sic et Non gave its blessing to the end of Roe v. Wade
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doubtingthomas
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Re: Roe on the Chopping Block

Post by doubtingthomas »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Sun Dec 05, 2021 8:42 pm
Why? Because for most murdering other human beings is so intolerable they’d take up arms to end that kind of evil. Hell, we did it to end slavery, or a state’s right to keep using chattel slavery.
a war against the US military? Seriously?

Almost nobody cares about the "5 genocides that are still going on today" in other countries.

So Doc, what are you going to do to help end the genocides all over the world?
Last edited by doubtingthomas on Mon Dec 06, 2021 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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