Russian Invasion of Ukraine

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K Graham
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Russian Invasion of Ukraine

Post by K Graham »

Could potentially lead to WWIII.

Seems like a pretty big deal. I'm surprised no one else here is already talking about it.
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Xenophon
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Xenophon »

I've thought about posting about it a few times the last few days. I'm just not sure I have much to add other than posting news clippings like some Twitter bot.

The situation is tense as hell, Russia seems hell bent on pushing the envelope and it is murky as to who will fold first. I'm sure the citizens thrust into WW1 felt much the same but it is strange to think major conflict could erupt over a game of political chicken.
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Res Ipsa »

I'm in the same boat, Xeno. I've been following it fairly closely, but I'm not sure I have anything meaningful to say about it.
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine

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A month ago Putin said he would remove his forces if we could guarantee Ukraine would not join NATO. That seemed like a non-starter, even though everything I've read suggests it would be highly unlikely it would ever join anyway. I'm wondering at this point if it was a mistake not to just give in on that point. I mean, Putin isn't always going to be in power. The chances of Ukraine becoming a member of NATO in his lifetime was unlikely.

Right now Ukraine's President and its citizens are talking about being a proud people who are willing to fight to the death. My heart goes out to them, and makes me somewhat ashamed to be an American these days because it seems we have lost the sense of what it truly means to fight for freedom. For the past 10 years or so I see "Don't Tread on Me" flags being waved by armed citizens talking about how they're suffering from "tyranny." They talk a lot of B.S., but none of them ever really expected to get in an armed conflict. This started with Obama and the fear that he was "coming for your guns." Now with Biden it is all about fighting the tyranny of mask/vaccine mandates. How pathetic is it to talk about tyranny in that context when real tyranny is facing millions of helpless people on the other side of the world?

The sick irony here is that these same people who have been hootin' and hollerin' about imagined tyranny, are the same people who seem completely unmoved by the plight of the Ukrainian people. People who are quite literally in the very same position as our founding fathers they pretend to emulate. Instead, they're taking this opportunity to slam our President, calling him "weak" while at the same time supporting his predecessor who just went on a podcast to say Putin's invasion of Ukraine is nothing short of genius and he thinks it would be a great thing to due at our southern border!

I flipped over to Hannity and he was in the middle of a rant, calling Biden "a pathetic shell of a human being." This is the same guy who in 2002, said that when it comes to war time, all Americans must unite and support the decisions or our President. Anything less is unpatriotic. Listening to the non-stop attacks on our President by our biggest news network is just disgusting, disheartening and embarrassing. Russian media is quite literally playing clips of Tucker, Pompeo and Trump's defense of Putin. They're quite literally working against the interests of the United States by undermining our attempts to make the case to the world that Putin is in the wrong. There is nothing admirable about what he's doing, trying to rebuild a Soviet Union the "way it was."

And the GOP? They're taking advantage of this opportunity to score political points.
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Xenophon »

K Graham wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:16 am
A month ago Putin said he would remove his forces if we could guarantee Ukraine would not join NATO. That seemed like a non-starter, even though everything I've read suggests it would be highly unlikely it would ever join anyway. I'm wondering at this point if it was a mistake not to just give in on that point. I mean, Putin isn't always going to be in power. The chances of Ukraine becoming a member of NATO in his lifetime was unlikely.
At this point I belive Putin has shown regardless of what we choose to do invasion was a foregone conclusion. Regardless of what NATO said the goal was the same. The eye has been on Ukraine for a while and for a myriad of reasons Russia has decided now is the time.

I'm with you that my heart goes out to the Ukrainians but my heart is also very selfish. I know it is mostly because of my age bracket but I'm about as war weary as one can be without having been there. I lost far too many friends in the Middle East (both to death and to the pain they would bring back with them) to fault the US for shying away from this fight. I recognize that our hesitancy may ultimately create irreparable harm but damned if I can't shake off the gun-shyness caused by previous conflict.
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine

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“The people of Ukraine and the government of Ukraine want peace,” President Volodymyr Zelenskyy said in an emotional overnight address to his nation in Russian. “But if we come under attack, if we face an attempt to take away our country, our freedom, our lives and lives of our children, we will defend ourselves. When you attack us, you will see our faces, not our backs.”

Just. Wow.
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine

Post by K Graham »

Xenophon wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:26 am
K Graham wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:16 am
A month ago Putin said he would remove his forces if we could guarantee Ukraine would not join NATO. That seemed like a non-starter, even though everything I've read suggests it would be highly unlikely it would ever join anyway. I'm wondering at this point if it was a mistake not to just give in on that point. I mean, Putin isn't always going to be in power. The chances of Ukraine becoming a member of NATO in his lifetime was unlikely.
At this point I belive Putin has shown regardless of what we choose to do invasion was a foregone conclusion. Regardless of what NATO said the goal was the same. The eye has been on Ukraine for a while and for a myriad of reasons Russia has decided now is the time.

I'm with you that my heart goes out to the Ukrainians but my heart is also very selfish. I know it is mostly because of my age bracket but I'm about as war weary as one can be without having been there. I lost far too many friends in the Middle East (both to death and to the pain they would bring back with them) to fault the US for shying away from this fight. I recognize that our hesitancy may ultimately create irreparable harm but damned if I can't shake off the gun-shyness caused by previous conflict.
Agreed. But here's the thing. Russia is a Nuclear power. There is no possibility of intervening militarily without starting WWIII and Biden has said from the beginning that military intervention was off the table. And thank God for that. Of course, if Trump were President the whole thing would be spun and turned into a non-issue, and we know this because he's already told us what he thinks about Putin's invasion.
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Res Ipsa »

Xenophon wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:26 am
K Graham wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:16 am
A month ago Putin said he would remove his forces if we could guarantee Ukraine would not join NATO. That seemed like a non-starter, even though everything I've read suggests it would be highly unlikely it would ever join anyway. I'm wondering at this point if it was a mistake not to just give in on that point. I mean, Putin isn't always going to be in power. The chances of Ukraine becoming a member of NATO in his lifetime was unlikely.
At this point I belive Putin has shown regardless of what we choose to do invasion was a foregone conclusion. Regardless of what NATO said the goal was the same. The eye has been on Ukraine for a while and for a myriad of reasons Russia has decided now is the time.

I'm with you that my heart goes out to the Ukrainians but my heart is also very selfish. I know it is mostly because of my age bracket but I'm about as war weary as one can be without having been there. I lost far too many friends in the Middle East (both to death and to the pain they would bring back with them) to fault the US for shying away from this fight. I recognize that our hesitancy may ultimately create irreparable harm but damned if I can't shake off the gun-shyness caused by previous conflict.
Based on Putin's recent statements, I think that NATO was an expedient excuse but not the problem. One interest piece I read lately talks about water. Apparently, the Crimea depends for water on sources in the Ukraine and the Ukranian government hasn't been falling all over itself getting water to the Crimea. As a result, the farm production in that region has suffered dramatically. We're already experiencing similar pressures here. Ammon Bundy tried to gather an army to forcibly open irrigation gates near Klamath Falls last summer. Fortunately, likely due to objections from the farmers themselves, the effort dried up and blew away. So, in addition to cultural and political motivations, water may be a factor.
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Xenophon »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:36 am
Based on Putin's recent statements, I think that NATO was an expedient excuse but not the problem. One interest piece I read lately talks about water. Apparently, the Crimea depends for water on sources in the Ukraine and the Ukranian government hasn't been falling all over itself getting water to the Crimea. As a result, the farm production in that region has suffered dramatically. We're already experiencing similar pressures here. Ammon Bundy tried to gather an army to forcibly open irrigation gates near Klamath Falls last summer. Fortunately, likely due to objections from the farmers themselves, the effort dried up and blew away. So, in addition to cultural and political motivations, water may be a factor.
I'd be really interested in reading that if you happen to have a handy link. I'm aware that both safe drinking water but also irrigation has been an issue in Ukraine for some time but I guess I missed where it was a contributing factor for pro-Russian Ukrainians. Not totally surprising, water issues have plagued the region for as long as people have tried to settle there.
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Xenophon »

K Graham wrote:
Thu Feb 24, 2022 3:31 am
Agreed. But here's the thing. Russia is a Nuclear power. There is no possibility of intervening militarily without starting WWIII and Biden has said from the beginning that military intervention was off the table. And thank God for that. Of course, if Trump were President the whole thing would be spun and turned into a non-issue, and we know this because he's already told us what he thinks about Putin's invasion.
I guess it just leaves me questioning what can even be done then. Sanctions are effectively a joke at this point, if military might can't be brought to bear what is an effective middle ground? Do we just cede everything until we get fed up?
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“If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation.”
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