Russian Invasion of Ukraine

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Chap
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine

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Jersey Girl wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 9:35 pm
Question for the teeming masses.

Why aren't WE holding up our end of the Budapest Memorandum?
Since you mention that, it might be helpful for people to read it:

https://www.pircenter.org/media/content ... 175580.pdf
Memorandum on Security Assurances in connection with Ukraine’s accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons

Budapest, 5 December 1994

The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland,

Welcoming the accession of Ukraine to theTreaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons as a non-nuclear-weapon State,

Taking into account the commitment of Ukraine to eliminate all nuclear weapons from its territory within a specified period of time,

Noting the changes in the world-wide security situation, including the end of the Cold War, which have brought about conditions for deep reductions in nuclear forces.

Confirm the following:

1. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to respect the Independence and Sovereignty and the existing borders of Ukraine.

2. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their obligation to refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of Ukraine, and that none of their weapons will ever be used against Ukraine except in self defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

3. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to Ukraine, in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act, to refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.

4. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm their commitment to seek immediate United Nations Security Council action to provide assistance to Ukraine, as a non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, if Ukraine should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used.

5. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, reaffirm, in the case of the Ukraine, their commitment not to use nuclear weapons against any non-nuclear-weapon State Party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a state in association or alliance with a nuclear weapon state.

6. The United States of America, the Russian Federation, and the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will consult in the event a situation arises which raises a question concerning these commitments.

This Memorandum will become applicable upon signature.

Signed in four copies having equal validity in the English, Russian and Ukrainian languages.
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Jersey Girl
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine

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If this report is true and accurate, we're in it up to our eyeballs now. Posted by Newsweek 2 hours ago.
Ukrainian Battalion Accuses Russia of Using Chemical Weapons on Civilians

AUkrainian battalion said Monday that Russia has used chemical weapons against Ukraine's military and citizens, causing victims to develop respiratory failure and other illnesses.

The Azoz Regiment, a unit of the National Guard of Ukraine, said the chemicals were of an "unknown origin" and dropped via an unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) on civilians in the southeastern city of Mariupol.

"About an hour ago, Russian occupation forces used a poisonous substance of unknown origin against Ukrainian military and civilians in the city of Mariupol, which was dropped from an enemy UAV," the Azoz Regiment posted on Telegram on Monday. "The victims have respiratory failure, vestibulo-atactic syndrome. The consequences of using an unknown substance are being clarified."
More at the link:

https://www.newsweek.com/ukrainian-batt ... ns-1697052

ETA: The Pentagon has not been able to confirm the above.
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doubtingthomas
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine

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Jersey Girl wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:55 pm


Ukrainian Battalion Accuses Russia of Using Chemical Weapons on Civilians
A month ago Ukrainian citizens were offering rides to Russian soldiers. Ukraine shouldn't have resisted. Jesus!
"I have the type of (REAL) job where I can choose how to spend my time," says Marcus. :roll:
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Jersey Girl
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine

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doubtingthomas wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 3:01 am
Jersey Girl wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:55 pm


Ukrainian Battalion Accuses Russia of Using Chemical Weapons on Civilians
A month ago Ukrainian citizens were offering rides to Russian soldiers. Ukraine shouldn't have resisted. Jesus!
Where do you think Ukrainian citizens would be today had the country not resisted? What would their lives be like?
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

Slava Ukraini!
doubtingthomas
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine

Post by doubtingthomas »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 3:04 am
Where do you think Ukrainian citizens would be today had the country not resisted? What would their lives be like?
Things wouldn't be good, but thousands of Ukrainian citizens wouldn't be dying.
"I have the type of (REAL) job where I can choose how to spend my time," says Marcus. :roll:
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Manetho
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Manetho »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 3:06 am
Things wouldn't be good, but thousands of Ukrainian citizens wouldn't be dying.
That's far from certain. Russian rhetoric around the invasion sounds increasingly like advocacy for genocide. Timothy Snyder, a historian specializing in Eastern Europe and the Holocaust, says this:
Timothy Snyder wrote:Russia has just issued a genocide handbook for its war on Ukraine. The Russian official press agency "RIA Novosti" published last Sunday an explicit program for the complete elimination of the Ukrainian nation as such. It is still available for viewing, and has now been translated several times into English.

As I have been saying since the war began, "denazification" in official Russian usage just means the destruction of the Ukrainian state and nation. A "Nazi," as the genocide manual explains, is simply a human being who self-identifies as Ukrainian. According to the handbook, the establishment of a Ukrainian state thirty years ago was the "nazification of Ukraine." Indeed "any attempt to build such a state" has to be a "Nazi" act. Ukrainians are "Nazis" because they fail to accept "the necessity that the people support Russia." Ukrainians should suffer for believing that they exist as a separate people; only this can lead to the "redemption of guilt"…

Russia's genocide handbook was published on April 3, two days after the first revelation that Russian servicemen in Ukraine had murdered hundreds of people in Bucha, and just as the story was reaching major newspapers. The Bucha massacre was one of several cases of mass killing that emerged as Russian troops withdrew from the Kyiv region. This means that the genocide program was knowingly published even as the physical evidence of genocide was emerging. The writer and the editors chose this particular moment to make public a program for the elimination of the Ukrainian nation as such.

As a historian of mass killing, I am hard pressed to think of many examples where states explicitly advertise the genocidal character of their own actions right at at the moment those actions become public knowledge. From a legal perspective, the existence of such a text (in the larger context of similar statements and Vladimir Putin's repeated denial that Ukraine exists) makes the charge of genocide far easier to make. Legally, genocide means both actions that destroy a group in whole or in part, combined with some intention to do so. Russia has done the deed and confessed to the intention.
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Chap »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 3:06 am
Jersey Girl wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 3:04 am
Where do you think Ukrainian citizens would be today had the country not resisted? What would their lives be like?
Things wouldn't be good, but thousands of Ukrainian citizens wouldn't be dying.
Countries that are attacked by their neighbours should never resist.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
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Moksha
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine

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Oh yeah? Well, Trump says Putin is a genius.
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Dr. Shades
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine

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Jersey Girl wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:55 pm
If this report is true and accurate, we're in it up to our eyeballs now.
Wrong. “We” aren’t in it at all, much less up to our eyeballs.
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Jersey Girl
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Re: Russian Invasion of Ukraine

Post by Jersey Girl »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Tue Apr 12, 2022 7:50 am
Jersey Girl wrote:
Mon Apr 11, 2022 10:55 pm
If this report is true and accurate, we're in it up to our eyeballs now.
Wrong. “We” aren’t in it at all, much less up to our eyeballs.
Are you saying that you think the U.S. wouldn't respond?
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

Slava Ukraini!
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