Exactly. So when the Ukrainian military backed away the war should've been over. Civilians shouldn't be paying the price.
This is not how wars are fought. The responsibility is not on the defenders considering they are not the ones aggressing. If you are an aggressor in a war the responsibility to minimize civilian casualties is certainly on you since you are instigating actions that will result in civilians dying.
But Russia wouldn't be able to use the Nato expansion as an excuse.
Russia ALREADY is using other reasons to invade Ukraine. They are using the fake 'genocide' going on in the Donbas, they are already claiming that Ukraine is a Nazi state as a reason. NATO is just one more to add to a very long and fake list. You don't seem very informed on the situation regarding this war.
We don't know. Initially Russia was only attacking military bases. If Russia really wanted to destroy Ukraine, we both know what it would do. There is no evidence that Russia really wants to take everything away from Ukraine.
I really don't know what to say to this because it is just factually wrong. What Russia did in Crimea and the Donbas is just a glimpse for what will happen to Ukraine as a whole if they take over.
"I advise all to go on to perfection and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness." -Joseph Smith
For NATO to cave and start publicly declaring it wont let certain states to join will only give Russia a further green light to invade other countries.
But Russia wouldn't be able to use the Nato expansion as an excuse.
When you are arrested by a cop, your language, culture, and way of life are not wiped off the face of the earth. That is what Ukraine faces if it stops resisting. Ukrainians have clearly shown by their resistance that they value preserving all of those things MORE than their own lives.
We don't know. Initially Russia was only attacking military bases. If Russia really wanted to destroy Ukraine, we both know what it would do. There is no evidence that Russia really wants to take everything away from Ukraine.
What would Russia do to REALLY destroy Ukraine, as opposed to what it is doing now? Are you saying Putin is waging a kinder, gentler war? Are we to applaud the fact that he has not used biological or nuclear weapons? Putin is shelling cities, killing civilians, looting food supplies, attacking evacuation corridors...
Let me ask you flat out, DT. Do you think Putin is guilty of war crimes?
The great problem of any civilization is how to rejuvenate itself without rebarbarization.
- Will Durant "Of what meaning is the world without mind? The question cannot exist."
- Edwin Land
Of course Putin is guilty of war crimes! If he had no nukes, we would be pouring into Ukraine to save the Ukrainians right now, and that would be the right thing to do, in my opinion.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
I'd guess DT is primarily scared of being drafted into the military due to WWIII breaking out, or being nuked. "Ukraine" could be anything, and discussing anything other than his own safety is not actually engaging his real concern.
I would prefer not to think that DT is just engaged in some kind of anxious but senseless babbling, but his posting style is not helping me to think otherwise.
Can someone help me by explaining his point of view in a clear and sensible way?
I mean, it can't just amount to "Anybody whose country is invaded should stop fighting and surrender so as to avoid civilian casualties", can it? Because at the moment, that's really all I am getting.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
I would prefer not to think that DT is just engaged in some kind of anxious but senseless babbling, but his posting style is not helping me to think otherwise.
Can someone help me by explaining his point of view in a clear and sensible way?
I mean, it can't just amount to "Anybody whose country is invaded should stop fighting and surrender so as to avoid civilian casualties", can it? Because at the moment, that's really all I am getting.
I think that is all there is.
"I advise all to go on to perfection and search deeper and deeper into the mysteries of Godliness." -Joseph Smith
"Anybody whose country is invaded should stop fighting and surrender so as to avoid drawing the United States into a war where the draft may be reinstated and I might die. If the United States were ever invaded, we should give up to ensure I don't die. Nuclear war is terrifying because if there is one, I will almost certainly die."
It's a simple model that has explanatory power. It's not that civilians might die. It's self interest writ incredibly small.
The Russian military doctrine is "escalate to de-escalate" precisely for the reason that it is so effective against those who agree with doubtingthomas.
On Monday, Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov told Reuters that the war could end "immediately" if Ukraine agreed to four conditions. That includes being barred from entering NATO, recognizing Crimea as Russian territory and the regions of Luhansk and Donetsk as independent; and ceasing all military action.
So Ukrainians are fighting for their right to join NATO? Seriously WTF! Zelensky isn't much better than Putin.
I am not defending Russia.
I thought DT was just advocating for what I have also said a couple of times now. Russia says it will go home if The U. promises to not seek to join NATO.
Give it to them. Renege later. Years later. Decades later. After regime change.
Something may be fishy though, if The U. knows that that is all it will take to end this, why don't they do it? Either; they don't believe Russia, or, they continue fighting because they want to try to retake Crimea?
