What exactly is Ukraine trying to defend?

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doubtingthomas
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What exactly is Ukraine trying to defend?

Post by doubtingthomas »

Zelensky Rejects Putin's Demands for Ending War

On Monday, Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov told Reuters that the war could end "immediately" if Ukraine agreed to four conditions. That includes being barred from entering NATO, recognizing Crimea as Russian territory and the regions of Luhansk and Donetsk as independent; and ceasing all military action.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ze ... ar-AAUKEPw

So Ukrainians are fighting for their right to join NATO? Seriously WTF! Zelensky isn't much better than Putin.

I am not defending Russia.
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Xenophon
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Re: What exactly is Ukraine trying to defend?

Post by Xenophon »

Given that Russia is invading currently in violation of a previous agreement what reason do Zelensky and Ukraine have to believe Russia will stick to these terms? Even if we ignore that they are purposefully designed to just give Russia further inroads for takeover later and also presented in a way for Putin to try to shift blame for his actions ("see how unreasonable this Zelensky guy is?!?!") this is a pretty simple set of demands to say no to and then get back to the negotiation table.
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doubtingthomas
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Re: What exactly is Ukraine trying to defend?

Post by doubtingthomas »

Xenophon wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:12 pm
Even if we ignore that they are purposefully designed to just give Russia further inroads for takeover later and also presented in a way for Putin to try to shift blame for his actions ("see how unreasonable this Zelensky guy is?!?!")
But at this moment none of that matters. What urgently matters is human life. The war (or invasion) must immediately end at any cost. Blaming Putin won't end the war.
Xenophon wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:12 pm
Given that Russia is invading currently in violation of a previous agreement what reason do Zelensky and Ukraine have to believe Russia will stick to these terms?
What previous agreement? Does Russia want to destroy Ukraine?
Last edited by doubtingthomas on Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What exactly is Ukraine trying to defend?

Post by Jersey Girl »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:19 pm

What previous agreement? Does Russia want to destroy Ukraine?
I think Xeno is referring to this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_ ... Assurances
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Re: What exactly is Ukraine trying to defend?

Post by Xenophon »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:19 pm
Xenophon wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:12 pm
Even if we ignore that they are purposefully designed to just give Russia further inroads for takeover later and also presented in a way for Putin to try to shift blame for his actions ("see how unreasonable this Zelensky guy is?!?!") this is a pretty simple set of demands to say no to and then get back to the negotiation table.
But at this moment none of that matters. What urgently matters is human life. The war (or invasion) must end at any cost. Blaming Putin won't end the war.
But what if you have to sacrifice every advantage you currently have to save lives presently and that decision winds up costing more lives in the long run. The situation is way too complex to come in with that kind of black and white thinking. It is highly likely that capitulating and ending the war won't actually mark an end to hostility. Right now Ukraine has a ton of needed support from a large portion of the world and if they are to preserve their independence now is likely their best shot. I don't fault them for standing up for themselves.
doubtingthomas wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:19 pm
What previous agreement?
A nice history lesson for you on the independence of Ukraine and why they actually agreed to give up all those juicy nukes they had. The most relevant bit:
1994 Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances

To solidify security commitments to Ukraine, the United States, Russia, and the United Kingdom signed the Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances on December 5, 1994. A political agreement in accordance with the principles of the Helsinki Accords, the memorandum included security assurances against the threat or use of force against Ukraine’s territory or political independence. The countries promised to respect the sovereignty and existing borders of Ukraine. Parallel memorandums were signed for Belarus and Kazakhstan as well. In response, Ukraine officially acceded to the NPT as a non-nuclear weapon state on December 5, 1994. That move met the final condition for ratification of START, and on the same day, the five START states-parties exchanged instruments of ratification, bringing the treaty into force.
doubtingthomas wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:19 pm
Does Russia want to destroy Ukraine?
Putin has stated his ultimate goal is to regain the former glory and territories of the USSR (there was even a snippet about it in the article you posted) so he likely won't truly stop until he is satisfied with that goal. Even if he promised nothing but sunshine and puppies for Ukraine I think it is fairly safe to not take him at his word. Given their previous numerous violations and even the constant "we're definitely not invading" mantra up until the point they were kicking in the door.
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Re: What exactly is Ukraine trying to defend?

Post by doubtingthomas »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:27 pm
I think Xeno is referring to this.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Budapest_ ... Assurances
Thank you Jersey Girl.
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Re: What exactly is Ukraine trying to defend?

Post by doubtingthomas »

Xenophon wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:38 pm
The situation is way too complex to come in with that kind of black and white thinking. It is highly likely that capitulating and ending the war won't actually mark an end to hostility.
Russia isn't nuking Ukraine. If Russia wanted to, it would have destroyed Ukraine long ago.
Xenophon wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:38 pm
Putin has stated his ultimate goal is to regain the former glory and territories of the USSR (there was even a snippet about it in the article you posted) so he likely won't truly stop until he is satisfied with that goal.
They should just let him. In nature the most powerful rule. Russia clearly has the most powerful military over there. It is what it is.

There is no real freedom, only the illusion of freedom. Corporate America rules the world. More people are overworking and getting heart disease.

Russia and Ukraine rank about the same in the Human Freedom Index Report for 2020.
Last edited by doubtingthomas on Tue Mar 08, 2022 11:54 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: What exactly is Ukraine trying to defend?

Post by Xenophon »

Your delightful combination of over simplification for complex geo political conflict coupled with nihilism is cute but probably not that useful to the people who are currently fighting and struggling to preserve their home.
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Re: What exactly is Ukraine trying to defend?

Post by doubtingthomas »

Xenophon wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 11:37 pm
Your delightful combination of over simplification for complex geo political conflict coupled with nihilism is cute but probably not that useful to the people who are currently fighting and struggling to preserve their home.
Ukraine should give Putin what he wants so the war could end.
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Re: What exactly is Ukraine trying to defend?

Post by Xenophon »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 11:51 pm
Xenophon wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 11:37 pm
Your delightful combination of over simplification for complex geo political conflict coupled with nihilism is cute but probably not that useful to the people who are currently fighting and struggling to preserve their home.
Millions don't have a home anymore. Ukraine should give Putin what he wants so the war could end.
If you earnestly believe giving in to Putin on Ukraine will end suffering, calamity, displacement, and death in the region you are beyond naïve.

Why not let the Ukrainians continue to decide what is best for themselves?
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“If you consider what are called the virtues in mankind, you will find their growth is assisted by education and cultivation.”
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