What exactly is Ukraine trying to defend?

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Res Ipsa
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Re: What exactly is Ukraine trying to defend?

Post by Res Ipsa »

dantana wrote:
Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:03 pm
doubtingthomas wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:02 pm

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ze ... ar-AAUKEPw

So Ukrainians are fighting for their right to join NATO? Seriously WTF! Zelensky isn't much better than Putin.

I am not defending Russia.
I thought DT was just advocating for what I have also said a couple of times now. Russia says it will go home if The U. promises to not seek to join NATO.
Give it to them. Renege later. Years later. Decades later. After regime change.

Something may be fishy though, if The U. knows that that is all it will take to end this, why don't they do it? Either; they don't believe Russia, or, they continue fighting because they want to try to retake Crimea?

Edit/add https://www.yahoo.com/news/zelenskyy-la ... 20899.html
Perhaps because they understand that the "independent" regions of their country will immediately become part of Russia?
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Re: What exactly is Ukraine trying to defend?

Post by doubtingthomas »

Kukulkan wrote:
Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:29 pm
NATO is just one more to add to a very long and fake list. You don't seem very informed on the situation regarding this war.
Okay. Please allow me to clarify. The US military went to Vietnam to help stop the communist expansion. Putin is using a similar excuse to invade Ukraine, it is a good excuse by US standards.

And the other countries probably don't want a lot of Nato members near them, you cannot rule out the possibility of a Nato member doing a false flag operation in the future.
Chap wrote:
Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:52 pm
I mean, it can't just amount to "Anybody whose country is invaded should stop fighting and surrender so as to avoid civilian casualties", can it? Because at the moment, that's really all I am getting.
The Ukrainian military failed to stop the Russian military from entering the country, so it should be over now.

The fierce resistance is the reason why Russia is attacking Ukraine with missiles. In my view it would be best for the resistance to look like this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0RVvDryReOg, at least the civilians are safe like that.
honorentheos wrote:
Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:58 pm

It's a simple model that has explanatory power. It's not that civilians might die. It's self interest writ incredibly small.
No, a nuclear war would end human civilization as we know it.
Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Mar 17, 2022 11:28 pm

Perhaps because they understand that the "independent" regions of their country will immediately become part of Russia?
So what do you think?
Last edited by doubtingthomas on Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: What exactly is Ukraine trying to defend?

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doubtingthomas wrote:
Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:13 am

Okay. Please allow me to clarify. The US invaded Vietnam to stop the communist expansion. Putin is using a similar excuse to invade Ukraine, it is a good excuse according to US standards.
doubting thomas, are you tangling your history?
There were a lot of people who did not think US action in Vietnam was justified,it was problematic, so using it as example of what is right is flawed. As important is the fact that the US was supporting the government of South Vietnam with their desire for US help. The US did not invade Vietnam. The US did not invade North Vietnam although some people saw logic to take that action as there were North Vietnamese soldiers fighting in South Vietnam.
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Re: What exactly is Ukraine trying to defend?

Post by doubtingthomas »

huckelberry wrote:
Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:31 am

doubting thomas, are you tangling your history?
There were a lot of people who did not think US action in Vietnam was justified,it was problematic
Did the US government admit it was a mistake?
huckelberry wrote:
Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:31 am
As important is the fact that the US was supporting the government of South Vietnam with their desire for US help.
Wasn't the US helping South Vietnam to stop the communist expansion?
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Re: What exactly is Ukraine trying to defend?

Post by honorentheos »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:13 am
honorentheos wrote:
Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:58 pm

It's a simple model that has explanatory power. It's not that civilians might die. It's self interest writ incredibly small.
No, a nuclear war would end human civilization as we know it.
Yeah, but that's not why you are concerned about Ukraine. Your view expressed in this thread is best understood as an expansion on your fear of death as an individual.
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Re: What exactly is Ukraine trying to defend?

Post by Kukulkan »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:13 am
Kukulkan wrote:
Thu Mar 17, 2022 8:29 pm
NATO is just one more to add to a very long and fake list. You don't seem very informed on the situation regarding this war.
Okay. Please allow me to clarify. The US military went to Vietnam to help stop the communist expansion. Putin is using a similar excuse to invade Ukraine, it is a good excuse by US standards.

And the other countries probably don't want a lot of Nato members near them, you cannot rule out the possibility of a Nato member doing a false flag operation in the future.
Not sure what your logic is. Since the US did something remotely similar that gives Russia the right to do so as well? I condemn the Vietnam War and I do the same for Putin's insanity fueled war in Ukraine.

I think it would be incredibly hard for a NATO member to conduct a false flag operation that would result in Article 5 being invoked. How would a NATO member carry out a fake attack by a foreign military? Remember, NATO has some of the worlds most powerful intelligence agencies. This isn't something that is easy to do without raising a lot of eyebrows.
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Re: What exactly is Ukraine trying to defend?

Post by Chap »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Sat Mar 19, 2022 1:13 am
The Ukrainian military failed to stop the Russian military from entering the country, so it should be over now.
By that logic, American colonists in favour of independence should never have started fighting, because King George's troops were in the country from the very start.

And Churchill should have told Hitler in 1940 "We shall fight ... until the moment that a German soldier sets foot in England. Then we shall surrender at once!"
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Re: What exactly is Ukraine trying to defend?

Post by Nomomo »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Tue Mar 08, 2022 10:02 pm
Zelensky Rejects Putin's Demands for Ending War

On Monday, Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov told Reuters that the war could end "immediately" if Ukraine agreed to four conditions. That includes being barred from entering NATO, recognizing Crimea as Russian territory and the regions of Luhansk and Donetsk as independent; and ceasing all military action.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/ze ... ar-AAUKEPw

So Ukrainians are fighting for their right to join NATO? Seriously WTF! Zelensky isn't much better than Putin.

I am not defending Russia.
Nothing to see here. Just more of the same old nonsense from doubtingthomas who has no grasp whatsoever on the substance of current events. Or anything else for that matter.
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Re: What exactly is Ukraine trying to defend?

Post by Gadianton »

On Monday, Kremlin spokesperson Dmitry Peskov told Reuters that the war could end "immediately" if Ukraine agreed to four conditions. That includes being barred from entering NATO, recognizing Crimea as Russian territory and the regions of Luhansk and Donetsk as independent; and ceasing all military action.
The biggest problem is that last term, DT. Since they weren't on the fast track to joining NATO in the first place, sure, give it up. Might was well recognize the outer regions as independent because they don't have the means to continue that fight anyway.

But how on earth are they to cease all of their military action before Russia turns around and leaves? Remember, Russia is playing the old "stolen election" game by saying Ukraine is the aggressor and they are just defending themselves. That's like during a home invasion, the thief with a gun tells you they will turn around and leave if you agree to quit your aggression toward them, every member of the household come forward with open hands and show you're unarmed, and then trust the invaders will quit defending themselves, turn around, and they will leave. It makes no sense, it's not a real proposal.

Interpret this statement from the Kremlin, for me DT:
"We really are finishing the demilitarisation of Ukraine. We will finish it. But the main thing is that Ukraine ceases its military action. They should stop their military action and then no one will shoot," he said.
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Re: What exactly is Ukraine trying to defend?

Post by doubtingthomas »

Kukulkan wrote:
Sat Mar 19, 2022 3:07 am
Not sure what your logic is. Since the US did something remotely similar that gives Russia the right to do so as well? I condemn the Vietnam War and I do the same for Putin's insanity fueled war in Ukraine.
No, I am not saying that. I also condemn Putin's insanity.
Gadianton wrote:
Sat Mar 19, 2022 11:39 pm

But how on earth are they to cease all of their military action before Russia turns around and leaves? Remember, Russia is playing the old "stolen election" game by saying Ukraine is the aggressor and they are just defending themselves.
Isn't it the same thing when cops show up to someone's house? If cops wanted to arrest you, would you resist? We both know Russia could use bigger missiles at any moment, so it is probably best for Ukrainians to stop the resistance. I remember Russia wasn't attacking civilians during the first week of the invasion.
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