What exactly is Ukraine trying to defend?

[Res Ipsa]

DT, I really think you have to think about this through the lens of World War II and the Cold War. The world appeased Hitler for quite a while, and millions of Jews and others were slaughtered. You also should probably think about what Stalin did to Ukraine back in his day. Death and imprisonment would be the inevitable result of Russia conquering Ukraine.

The NATO issue is a pretext, not a valid reason for a military invasion. The U.S. and other NATO countries haven't been seriously interested in admitting Ukraine as a member precisely because they understand the consequences of poking the bear.

If Russia conquers Ukraine, the death and destruction will not end. Putin will execute or imprison any Ukrainians that oppose him politically. This is a man who poisoned his enemies while they were in other countries. Ukrainians will continue to defend their country, just as groups did in Afghanistan and Iraq. Just as Americans would if our nation were militarily conquered.

Yes, people are hypocrites. Welcome to being a human being. You are welcome to wring your hands about it and chastise others, but that shouldn't get in the way of doing the right thing.

[doubtingthomas]

I think ultimately the question is whether we are going to trust Putin at the helm of an expanding nuclear empire such that when he states his objective to enlarge that empire to take in neighboring states that don't want to belong to it, we just sit on our hands and do nothing.

No one has to trust Putin, the US should have permanently banned Urkaine for joining Nato. Now Putin is using the Nato expansion as an excuse.

[Res Ipsa]

I think ultimately the question is whether we are going to trust Putin at the helm of an expanding nuclear empire such that when he states his objective to enlarge that empire to take in neighboring states that don't want to belong to it, we just sit on our hands and do nothing.

No one has to trust Putin, the US should have permanently banned Urkaine for joining Nato. Now Putin is using the Nato expansion as an excuse.

The US doesn't run NATO. If Putin couldn't use NATO as an excuse, he would simply manufacture another one. In fact, he's manufactured several more already. Putin's desire to militarily conquer Ukraine has everything to do with restoring the power of the former Soviet Union and nothing to do with NATO.

[Manetho]

The hypocrisy of people is astonish. The overwhelming majority of Americans supported the invasion of Iraq. I understand the invasion of Ukraine is worse, but it would be like saying that Paddock is much worse than Crumbley.

I vehemently opposed the invasion of Iraq. And many of those who supported it at the time realize in hindsight that it was wrong. Are all Americans precluded from opposing the invasion of Ukraine because a past presidential administration stampeded the American public into doing something similar 19 years ago?

Imagine cops showing up to your house to arrest you, would you resist?

This is a ridiculous metaphor. If you're arrested, you will (I certainly hope) be charged with an actual crime, and will get the chance to defend yourself against the charges and be acquitted. The only "crimes" Ukraine has committed are refusing to be subservient to Russia and seeking closer ties with the West — mostly not NATO membership, which Ukraine wasn't applying for, but closer economic ties to the EU. As a sovereign nation, Ukraine is perfectly within its rights to do both those things. But Putin has said that Ukraine "is not a real country" and seems to believe that it is "really" part of Russia, and therefore he has the right to dictate what it does.

If you want to use the metaphor of a house, the situation in Ukraine is more comparable to an armed gang showing up at your house and declaring that you and your house are now their property.

[Kukulkan]

What about the possibility of a false flag?

"U.S. Military Wanted to Provoke War With Cuba...The plans were motivated by an intense desire among senior military leaders to depose Castro, who seized power in 1959 to become the first communist leader in the Western Hemisphere — only 90 miles from U.S. shores."
https://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=92662&page=1

No one can 100% guarantee that a Nato member won't create a false flag.

You provide me with evidence that NATO has, as an organization used false flags. NATO as an organization does not have any history of false flags. NATO is much more than just the US.

You want to know who does and currently is employing false flags? Russia is. Multiple intelligence agencies in the lead-up to the invasion warned that Russia would use false flags to legitimize and rationalize its invasion of Ukraine. If you want to criticize anyone for employing false flags, aim your sights at Russia.

Again, that is like saying that Paddock is worse than Crumbley. The US attacked Japan with a nuclear missile and thousands of innocent Japanese civilians (who had nothing to do with Pearl Harbor) died.

By all available metrics then and now the death toll on the Japanese civilians would have been exponentially larger if the US had conducted a military invasion of mainland Japan.

In late July 1945, the War Department provided an estimate that the entire Downfall operations would cause between 1.7 to 4 million U.S. casualties, including 400-800,000 U.S. dead, and 5 to 10 million Japanese dead.

Source:https://www.history.navy.mil/about-us/l ... se%20dead.

Arguably, the dropping of the nuclear bombs was the lesser of two evils.

Okay. but don't you agree all the fighting and defending should have happened at the border or near the Ukraine's side of the border?

The resistance should stop. What would you do if some guy with a gun tells you "Your family or your car keys"?

In a perfect world, yes. In theory all fighting should be away from civilian areas, but war ever since its inception has occurred in both non-populated and populated areas. Again, if you want civilians to stop dying, criticize the Russians for the current 'scorched earth' methodology they are employing.

To compare Ukrainian national identity, culture, language, way of life (which all will be mostly eradicated if Russia wins the war) to a couple thousand dollar car is a disingenuous comparison at best.

[doubtingthomas]

DT, I really think you have to think about this through the lens of World War II and the Cold War. The world appeased Hitler for quite a while, and millions of Jews and others were slaughtered. You also should probably think about what Stalin did to Ukraine back in his day. Death and imprisonment would be the inevitable result of Russia conquering Ukraine.

We don't know that, things are a little bit different now. "Russia banned the use of leaded gasoline nationwide in 2003".

If Russia conquers Ukraine, the death and destruction will not end. Putin will execute or imprison any Ukrainians that oppose him politically.

In the US millions of non-violent drug offenders are arrested.

As I said things are a little bit different now, we don't really know what Putin would do.

You are welcome to wring your hands about it and chastise others, but that shouldn't get in the way of doing the right thing.

Well, all the defending should have happened at the border. The war should now be over in my opinion. I don't want a nuclear war.

[doubtingthomas]

This is a ridiculous metaphor. If you're arrested, you will (I certainly hope) be charged with an actual crime, and will get the chance to defend yourself against the charges and be acquitted.

Not if you are poor. How many people are coerced to take plea deals and how many people are found guilty by biased judges and jurors? Or what if you committed a harmless crime? Millions of people are arrested for non-violent drug possession.

Are all Americans precluded from opposing the invasion of Ukraine because a past presidential administration stampeded the American public into doing something similar 19 years ago?

No, but the US didn't ban Ukraine from joining Nato. Now Putin is using the Nato expansion as an excuse.

but closer economic ties to the EU.

So why didn't the US ban Ukraine from joining Nato? It makes no sense.

[Manetho]

So why didn't the US ban Ukraine from joining Nato? It makes no sense.

I don't know if NATO's rules even allow an outright "ban", and one of the requirements for membership is stable borders, which Ukraine ceased to have once Russia invaded Crimea and the Donbas in 2014, so it wasn't going to happen anytime soon. And the odds are good that if we had made some kind of declaration that Ukraine would never, ever join NATO, Putin would have taken it as a green light. Because:

This is not about NATO. Putin wants Ukraine, because Ukraine is part of Russia's national identity.

[Chap]

Well, all the defending should have happened at the border.

Well, it didn't stop there. Are you really saying that the only place the Ukrainians were allowed to resist was at the border itself, and if a Russian managed to cross the border they should have surrendered at once? You have repeated this stuff several times, and I still do not see any sense in what you are saying.

Defense against an invader is not a board game. In the Napoleonic wars the Russian destroyed the invading French imperial army by (roughly speaking) retreating in front of it into the vastness of Russia until the French lines of communication were stretched too thin to get supplies through, and by the time the French decided to give up and go home winter was upon them, and they were starving and frozen/

The Ukrainians are entitled to defend their country any way they can and wish. Your feelings are irrelevant to the question.

[Doctor Steuss]

DT, I really think you have to think about this through the lens of World War II and the Cold War. The world appeased Hitler for quite a while, and millions of Jews and others were slaughtered. You also should probably think about what Stalin did to Ukraine back in his day. Death and imprisonment would be the inevitable result of Russia conquering Ukraine.

We don't know that, things are a little bit different now. "Russia banned the use of leaded gasoline nationwide in 2003".

I'm sure the banning of leaded gasoline is of great comfort to Alexei Navalny, and countless others.