Boosie Speaks Truth About Transgender Swimmer

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Kukulkan
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Re: Boosie Speaks Truth About Transgender Swimmer

Post by Kukulkan »

This is such a difficult topic because I feel that no solutions are good ones. One solution always leaves some group of people burned.

I think it is fair to say that Lia Thomas is afforded certain physical advantages because she was born male. Yes there are genetic freaks like Michael Phelps, but the understanding is that Michael Phelps gained those advantages as a male, and is competing against other males. Controlling for body types in sports would be a subjective logistical nightmare. I can see how some might be upset that Lia is advantaged by certain physical factors (wingspan, height, bone density, muscle density/strength, etc) that she gained through male puberty, yet is competing against females. While her T levels might be that of a female, you don't lose all of the physical advantages that are gained through puberty. Recent studies have shown that while noticeable decreases in strength are noted, even after a significant amount of time of hormone therapy, muscle mass and strength of transgender women is on average greater than that of a biological woman.

We need to be okay with acknowledging this. It doesn't mean we need to demean or persecute athletes who are transgender who want to compete. I sympathize with them and it honestly feels crappy that they are caught in this situation. It is abhorrent that political actors are taking advantage of this situation to push their prejudiced and discriminatory views. But, we also need to follow the science. I honestly don't have good answers when it comes to what we do with this information. It is a really, REALLY tough situation to figure out.

Sources: https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/15/865, https://news.ki.se/new-study-on-changes ... roduction., https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31794605/
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Re: Boosie Speaks Truth About Transgender Swimmer

Post by K Graham »

From the link provided by Res:
Trans women have larger frames, which are now being powered by reduced muscle mass and reduced aerobic capacity, and that can lead to disadvantages in things like quickness, recovery endurance, and things that might not be quite as obvious as seeing somebody bigger.

How do these disadvantages play out? We don’t know yet because the research is very early on. But the idea that trans women only have advantages just isn't true. The analogy I've used is that it's like a big car with a small engine competing against a small car with a small engine.
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Re: Boosie Speaks Truth About Transgender Swimmer

Post by Doctor Steuss »

K Graham wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 3:51 pm
They think she has some hormonal advantage, even though these women are all tested to make sure their testosterone levels are normal. At the end of the day they're just disgusted that someone with a penis is in the same pool with them and they're making excuses for losing.
I don't know that factors outside of hormones can/should necessarily be ruled out in the broader (serious) discussion -- which I'm not entirely sure is possible given the OP, but *shrug*.

Using someone else -- Janae Kroc -- as an example. When Matt Kroc** set a deadlift record of 810 lbs for his weight class (when he was 37 years old), the world record was 1,008 lbs. About a 200 lb difference.

After stopping testosterone, and taking estrogen for 18 months, Janae's deadlift was 605 lbs. That's just 21 lbs shy of the overall female world record. After all of the years taking exogenous hormones, there was likely no natural testosterone production occurring anymore, so you'd probably be looking at testosterone levels similar to, or below, your average woman.

Janae, at 45 years old(!) was able to deadlift almost as much as the overall female world record, without any type of specific deadlift-focused training.

Now, naturally there is huge variation amongst sports, drug-testing, etc. So I want to add that I am by no means insinuating that Janae is analogous to Lia. Just that reducing the conversation about transgender competitive athletes just to hormones is likely over-simplifying in the broader context (if that makes sense[?]).


[**Janae refers to herself as "Matt" when speaking of pre-transition times, etc.**]
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Re: Boosie Speaks Truth About Transgender Swimmer

Post by K Graham »

Black people have higher muscle density and are far less buoyant. Maybe we should prevent white people from competing with them since there is a biological disadvantage.
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Re: Boosie Speaks Truth About Transgender Swimmer

Post by Mrs. Atlanticmike »

K Graham wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 4:28 pm
Black people have higher muscle density and are far less buoyant. Maybe we should prevent white people from competing with them since there is a biological disadvantage.
This is racist. You're admitting you think black people are built differently? Wasn't Jimmy 'The Greek' fired for thinking the same? I'm starting to think Mike might understand who you truly are.
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Re: Boosie Speaks Truth About Transgender Swimmer

Post by Res Ipsa »

K Graham wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 4:25 pm
From the link provided by Res:
Trans women have larger frames, which are now being powered by reduced muscle mass and reduced aerobic capacity, and that can lead to disadvantages in things like quickness, recovery endurance, and things that might not be quite as obvious as seeing somebody bigger.

How do these disadvantages play out? We don’t know yet because the research is very early on. But the idea that trans women only have advantages just isn't true. The analogy I've used is that it's like a big car with a small engine competing against a small car with a small engine.
Yes, and that's why the governing bodies for each sport should be permitted to determine the eligibility requirements for their sport.
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Re: Boosie Speaks Truth About Transgender Swimmer

Post by Chap »

(Let's just say) Atlanticmike wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 4:58 pm
K Graham wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 4:28 pm
Black people have higher muscle density and are far less buoyant. Maybe we should prevent white people from competing with them since there is a biological disadvantage.
This is racist. You're admitting you think black people are built differently? Wasn't Jimmy 'The Greek' fired for thinking the same? I'm starting to think Mike might understand who you truly are.
American Journal of Human Biology
Buoyancy of African black and European white males
P.F.M. Ama, S. Ambassa
First published: 07 December 1998

https://doi.org/10.1002/(SICI)1520-6300 ... 3.0.CO;2-V
ABSTRACT

Twenty-six male swimmers (13 Blacks, 13 Whites) matched for age, weight, and stature were subjects in the comparison of anthropometric characteristics and horizontal and vertical buoyancies. Subjects were tested in a swimming pool in the horizontal position. The time necessary for the body to return to the vertical position defined horizontal buoyancy. Vertical buoyancy was the hydrostatic lift necessary to maintain the subject immersed to the nose. The results indicated similarities in arm span, trunk flexibility, and full inspiration and exhalation of Black and White subjects. However, there were differences in body fat distribution (P ≤ 0.05) and buoyancies (P ≤ 0.01), with Whites storing more fat and having better buoyancy than Blacks. Am. J. Hum. Biol. 9:87–92 © 1997 Wiley-Liss, Inc.
I have further terrible news. In another shocking example of racism, some so-called scientists have claimed that black people's skin has on average a higher melanin content than white people's skin.

Racism is about treating people in an unfairly different way because of their ethnic origin. It's not anti-racist to pretend that there are not, as a percentage of population, more tall thin blue-eyed blond people in Scandinavia than there are in Guangdong province, China. It's simply dumb.
Last edited by Chap on Wed Mar 23, 2022 5:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Boosie Speaks Truth About Transgender Swimmer

Post by MeDotOrg »

On a physiological level, Trans is different from male or female. Back in the 70's and 80's, East Germany won a suspiciously high percentage of Olympic medals. There were a lot of whispers about East German trans athletes. It turned out over 10,000 athletes were given large doses of anabolic steroids. Some female athletes had sex change operations because the steroids were 'telling' their bodies to be male.

If a female athlete decides to undergo a sex change, does she get to compete as a female while taking steroids prior to her sex change operations?

I am sympathetic to the idea that trans athletes should have an arena to compete. But to say that the physiological differences between a trans female and a biological female somehow 'even out' is not the same as saying that the physiological playing field is even.
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Re: Boosie Speaks Truth About Transgender Swimmer

Post by Res Ipsa »

Mrs. Atlanticmike wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 4:58 pm
K Graham wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 4:28 pm
Black people have higher muscle density and are far less buoyant. Maybe we should prevent white people from competing with them since there is a biological disadvantage.
This is racist. You're admitting you think black people are built differently? Wasn't Jimmy 'The Greek' fired for thinking the same? I'm starting to think Mike might understand who you truly are.
No, Jimmy the Greek was fired after giving an interview that included these statements:
Some of the statements Snyder made in the interview with Hotaling included: "They've {blacks} got everything; if they take over coaching like everybody wants them to, there's not going to be anything left for white people."

Snyder described blacks as being superior athletes because generally, he said, they work harder than white athletes.

Then he added, "the black is a better athlete to begin with, because he's been bred that way. Because of his high thighs that go up into his back. And they can jump higher and run faster because of their bigger thighs.

"This all goes back to the Civil War, when, during the slave trading, the slave owner would breed his big black to his big woman so that he would have a big black kid. That's where it all started."
His firing was controversial, and the black reporter that conducted the interview was opposed to his being fired. Jimmy admitted that his remarks were idiotic.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/archive/ ... edirect=on
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Re: Boosie does NOT Speak Truth About Transgender Swimmer

Post by Marcus »

Dr. Shades wrote:
Wed Mar 23, 2022 1:27 am
Marcus wrote:
Tue Mar 22, 2022 10:43 pm
Also, “lil Boosie” is a rapper whose latest endeavor was inspecting female genitalia with a magnifying glass, ON CAMERA. Sadly, I am not kidding in the least.
Does he need an assistant?
That’s grossly inappropriate, Shades. Free speech is your right, but just because you are technically allowed to be that offensive under our rules doesn’t mean it’s acceptable in a conversation.
Last edited by Marcus on Thu Mar 24, 2022 5:47 am, edited 1 time in total.
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