My question would be: How do we get from here to there? If the State structure is outmoded, what does the transition look like between autonomous nation-states and 'Civilization Spheres'? When do nation states begin to give up their autonomy on the way to Dugin's future?
What's with the 'give up' stuff? Are you telling me that Dugin seriously envisages nations happily 'giving up their autonomy' to (say) the Russian 'Civilisation Sphere' on a voluntary basis, just because they think it is the historically right thing to do? Somehow I think he is expecting force to play a role, don't you?
Of course there are some organisations to which nations have voluntarily sacrificed a certain amount of autonomy in order to obtain anticipated economic, social and political benefits, by signing treaties that bind them to act in accordance with agreements to which a number of other nation-states have voluntarily agreed amongst themselves. The European Union (which Ukraine would love to join, if possible) is a good example of that.
But those are hardly 'Civilisation Spheres' along Dugin's lines, are they? For a start, they permit withdrawal, which I don't think Dugin does.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
I think that Alexandr Dugin's take on Traditionalism substitutes a kind of "sacred geography" for religion (or white ethnicity) in that he thinks every ancient civilization has its own sacred geography. Coincidentally, the "North" (read Russian Eurasia) is more sacred than other sacred geographies.
I get the idea that the real expert on Eurasianism is Marlene Laruelle, but her Russian Eurasianism: An Ideology of Empire is only available in paper. For a host of reasons, we try to restrict our bound book purchases to art, poetry, cookbooks, and Persian literature. I'd have to carve out a special exception to break that household rule.
Ah, OK. So, the sacred geography of the North was a big thing for the Nazis too, wasn't it? I have been reading, as much as I can stomach it, Rene Guenon's critique of modernity, in which he makes a big deal about Hyperborean civilization, which is a bizarre kind of mythological concept. I had not heard of Marlene Laruelle. Thanks for pointing that out. I am spending more time trying to figure out what is going on with these right-wing traditionalists like Steve Bannon. In some ways they are a lot more shrewd and sophisticated than the Nazis, but they are no less dangerous, in my opinion.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
Ah, OK. So, the sacred geography of the North was a big thing for the Nazis too, wasn't it? I have been reading, as much as I can stomach it, Rene Guenon's critique of modernity, in which he makes a big deal about Hyperborean civilization, which is a bizarre kind of mythological concept. I had not heard of Marlene Laruelle. Thanks for pointing that out. I am spending more time trying to figure out what is going on with these right-wing traditionalists like Steve Bannon. In some ways they are a lot more shrewd and sophisticated than the Nazis, but they are no less dangerous, in my opinion.
Yeah, Alexandr Dugin tries to frame it a little differently from the Nazis, though, by paying tribute to Islam, Taoism, etc. In a cursory reading, he exudes a tolerance of difference that a deeper perusal pretty much exposes as fiction. You're right in your guess as to what he admits are his influences: Julius Evola and Rene Guenon. That fact alone should inform everyone as to his end game.
I agree, the intellectual framing of these types of ideas by folks like Bannon and Dugin is scary as hell. I can only read this stuff in measured doses. There's real evil here.
My question would be: How do we get from here to there? If the State structure is outmoded, what does the transition look like between autonomous nation-states and 'Civilization Spheres'? When do nation states begin to give up their autonomy on the way to Dugin's future?
What's with the 'give up' stuff? Are you telling me that Dugin seriously envisages nations happily 'giving up their autonomy' to (say) the Russian 'Civilisation Sphere' on a voluntary basis, just because they think it is the historically right thing to do? Somehow I think he is expecting force to play a role, don't you?
Of course there are some organisations to which nations have voluntarily sacrificed a certain amount of autonomy in order to obtain anticipated economic, social and political benefits, by signing treaties that bind them to act in accordance with agreements to which a number of other nation-states have voluntarily agreed amongst themselves. The European Union (which Ukraine would love to join, if possible) is a good example of that.
But those are hardly 'Civilisation Spheres' along Dugin's lines, are they? For a start, they permit withdrawal, which I don't think Dugin does.
That's why I asked the question. It is one thing to say that the world is moving towards a post nation-state framework, but it is quite another to ask how that transition occurs.
The great problem of any civilization is how to rejuvenate itself without rebarbarization.
- Will Durant "Of what meaning is the world without mind? The question cannot exist."
- Edwin Land
Yeah, Alexandr Dugin tries to frame it a little differently from the Nazis, though, by paying tribute to Islam, Taoism, etc. In a cursory reading, he exudes a tolerance of difference that a deeper perusal pretty much exposes as fiction. You're right in your guess as to what he admits are his influences: Julius Evola and Rene Guenon. That fact alone should inform everyone as to his end game.
I agree, the intellectual framing of these types of ideas by folks like Bannon and Dugin is scary as hell. I can only read this stuff in measured doses. There's real evil here.
Rene Guenon believed that the only real unbroken traditions existed in the East, so that it would be inevitable to go to the East to find such a thing. He was criticizing people who were heavily ensconced in the Western esoteric tradition, basically telling them they had no tradition to speak of. This idealization of the East is a little odd, in my view. I may be mistaken, but he does concede that the one possibility for recovering a tradition in the West would be in Christianity, and he was probably thinking of Catholicism. Ergo, it is no coincidence, in my view, that the new right is big into old-time Catholicism.
Bannon and Dugin have some major disagreements. Bannon likes nation states, and Dugin sees civilizations as the fundamental unit of human community. I would say that Bannon's view is perhaps less interventionist and less imperialist than Dugin's. Dugin seems to think that the old Soviet Empire is roughly the extent to which Russia should be allowed to do whatever it likes without a peep from anyone in the West.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
Rene Guenon believed that the only real unbroken traditions existed in the East, so that it would be inevitable to go to the East to find such a thing. He was criticizing people who were heavily ensconced in the Western esoteric tradition, basically telling them they had no tradition to speak of. This idealization of the East is a little odd, in my view.
Yup. The moment anybody starts talking in this way they reveal a profound ignorance of the actual history of East Asia. It is the 13th strike of the clock, which, as they say "is not only disbelieved in itself, but also casts into doubt all that has got before".
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
Yup. The moment anybody starts talking in this way they reveal a profound ignorance of the actual history of East Asia. It is the 13th strike of the clock, which, as they say "is not only disbelieved in itself, but also casts into doubt all that has got before".
It never ceases to amaze me how yesterday’s junk history and junk anthropology becomes this generation’s political theology.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
Rene Guenon believed that the only real unbroken traditions existed in the East, so that it would be inevitable to go to the East to find such a thing. He was criticizing people who were heavily ensconced in the Western esoteric tradition, basically telling them they had no tradition to speak of. This idealization of the East is a little odd, in my view. I may be mistaken, but he does concede that the one possibility for recovering a tradition in the West would be in Christianity, and he was probably thinking of Catholicism. Ergo, it is no coincidence, in my view, that the new right is big into old-time Catholicism.
Bannon and Dugin have some major disagreements. Bannon likes nation states, and Dugin sees civilizations as the fundamental unit of human community. I would say that Bannon's view is perhaps less interventionist and less imperialist than Dugin's. Dugin seems to think that the old Soviet Empire is roughly the extent to which Russia should be allowed to do whatever it likes without a peep from anyone in the West.
Wasn’t Guenon a Sufi? I’m more familiar with Evola than I am with Guenon. My introduction to Julius Evola was initially through his Futurist paintings and writing.
This idealization of the East is a little odd, in my view.
I think this fits that whole contemporary Orientalist tradition of Russian intellectuals who were doing the same. My mind immediately goes to Ouspensky and Gurdjieff and the whole “Fourth Way” thing.
I think this fits that whole contemporary Orientalist tradition of Russian intellectuals who were doing the same. My mind immediately goes to Ouspensky and Gurdjieff and the whole “Fourth Way” thing.
Indeed. Good point.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
