Public Space and Public Education

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Kishkumen
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Public Space and Public Education

Post by Kishkumen »

I just got out of some qualifying exams for a doctoral student who is preparing to write a dissertation on Early Modern Europe. Some comments in that discussion started the old noodle going, and I feel the need to pick up where my pitiful OP on "Don't Say Gay" left off.

Those comments touched on the idea of the emergence of the idea of the public. As the young man's advisor pointed out, in a monarchy the king hands out privileges; in a republic the public confers sovereignty. How that relates to the legislation about public schools teaching issues of gender in Florida is a complicated question, but I couldn't help but think that the issue of who the public is and what their power is is tied up in the question of what is to be taught in the public sphere.

Also interesting from the same discussion was the public historian who took issue with the student referring to public museums as "government" museums, inasmuch as the use of the latter terminology is evidently one way people on the Right alienate themselves and each other from the republic. If it is public it belongs to everyone. If it is the government, then someone out there is doing stuff we don't like and they don't have a right to do that. Government is more easily cast as being oppressive.

I think we can see why this happens. First of all, the question of who the public is cannot be ignored. So often it is taken for granted as being, well "all of us," but clearly the question is much more complicated, and unfortunately few people really get into the meat of what they mean when they use these terms. Does public refer to all citizens of a country? All permanent inhabitants of a country?

You can begin to see why people on the Right and Left are at an impasse. The solution on the Right is to weed out people who do not fit one's idea of what the public ought to be. The solution on the Left is to make everyone, regardless of how they feel about it, be part of that public in arenas that are considered "public." I sympathize more with the latter, but the former is a reality that has to be dealt with. I am one to be as inclusive as possible, but what do you do when large numbers of people refuse to be part of the "public" or refuse to recognize many others as belonging to it? Right now we have two sides essentially telling each other that the other side's idea of the public is a non-starter.
“If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don’t have to worry about the answers.”~Thomas Pynchon, Gravity’s Rainbow
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Some Schmo
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Re: Public Space and Public Education

Post by Some Schmo »

Yeah, I hadn't thought about it in those terms but what you wrote makes sense to me.

My primary reaction to it is that one's attitude toward what the public is is likely a reflection of one's general attitude toward education, especially when you consider how many people have antipathy toward education corresponding with their distrust of the government. I doubt that's an accident. Less educated people are easier to convince of outrageous things, and are easier for authoritarians to control. Convincing people they should distrust facts, education and educated people is on page one of the dictator's handbook.

Trump is by no means the only authoritarian in the GOP. The party should really rename itself and give back "Republican."
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

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Re: Public Space and Public Education

Post by honorentheos »

Interesting topic, Kishkumen. When you started I expected to see a version of the social contract debates arise beginning with Hobbes. The divergence from that gave me cause to think about it more which I appreciate, in no small measure due to the modern debate reflecting this pruning as well.

In some ways I imagine modern Americans could be grouped under the political views represented by a number of past thinkers. Of those, I think three are most informative, focusing on the struggles around the French Revolution as it seems applicable to our times:

The political right: Joseph de Maistre

The political left: Emmanuel Joseph Sieyès

Those who feel sympathetic to progressive ideas but not outspoken progressive politicians and internet personalities: Edmund Burke.
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ajax18
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Re: Public Space and Public Education

Post by ajax18 »

It started out as consenting adults behind closed doors. Now you want to teach my 1st grader about homosexuality and tell her it's ok. Why? And why has the number of transgender people risen enormously? Up to 20% of the rising generation view themselves as intersex. We need to lock people up for taking an extra oxycodone but a kid can get gender reassignment surgery and permanently disfigure himself and the parents can't do anything to stop him?

I am part of the public to. It's my tax money paying the teachers salary as well. And there is no reason for you to be teaching my child about homosexuality nor trying to mold his mind about it. I view homosexuality as immoral and no you don't get to tell my kid that it's ok.
And when the Confederates saw Jackson standing fearless like a stonewall, the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
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Re: Public Space and Public Education

Post by Morley »

ajax18 wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 2:33 am
I am part of the public to. It's my tax money paying the teachers salary as well. And there is no reason for you to be teaching my child about homosexuality nor trying to mold his mind about it. I view homosexuality as immoral and no you don't get to tell my kid that it's ok.
Of course I do. And you get to tell my kid that country music is okay. We each have our own ideas about what is sinful.
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Re: Public Space and Public Education

Post by honorentheos »

ajax18 wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 2:33 am
It started out as consenting adults behind closed doors. Now you want to teach my 1st grader about homosexuality and tell her it's ok. Why? And why has the number of transgender people risen enormously? Up to 20% of the rising generation view themselves as intersex. We need to lock people up for taking an extra oxycodone but a kid can get gender reassignment surgery and permanently disfigure himself and the parents can't do anything to stop him?

I am part of the public to. It's my tax money paying the teachers salary as well. And there is no reason for you to be teaching my child about homosexuality nor trying to mold his mind about it. I view homosexuality as immoral and no you don't get to tell my kid that it's ok.
Hey ajax, how do you feel about this quote?

Human reason reduced to its own resources is perfectly worthless, not only for creating but also for preserving any political or religious association, because it only produces disputes, and, to conduct himself well, man needs not problems but beliefs. His cradle should be surrounded by dogmas, and when his reason is awakened, it should find all his opinions ready-made, at least all those relating to his conduct. Nothing is so important to him as prejudices. Let us not take this word in a bad sense. It does not necessarily mean false ideas, but only, in the strict sense of the word, opinions adopted before any examination. Now these sorts of opinions are man’s greatest need, the true elements of his happiness, and the Palladium of empires. Without them, there can be neither worship, nor morality, nor government. There must be a state religion just as there is a state policy; or, rather, religious and political dogmas must be merged and mingled together to form a complete common or national reason strong enough to repress the aberrations of individual reason, which of its nature is the mortal enemy of any association whatever because it produces only divergent opinions.
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Re: Public Space and Public Education

Post by K Graham »

ajax18 wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 2:33 am
It started out as consenting adults behind closed doors. Now you want to teach my 1st grader about homosexuality and tell her it's ok. Why?
In another thread you claimed several times that first graders were being taught about "gay sex" and I asked you to back it up only to see you flee the scene as usual. Now you're here peddling more BS.
And why has the number of transgender people risen enormously?
It hasn't. This is the same claim ignorant Republicans made about the percentage of homosexuals back during the 80's and 90's. The only real difference is that more and more of them are coming out because society has become less religious, less ignorant and more inclusive as a whole. And this really pisses off people on the Right who cling to their guns and religion. People who hate education and progress.
Up to 20% of the rising generation view themselves as intersex.
That's just another ajax lie that you'll walk away from without ever trying to support. A recent UCLA study determined that roughly 0.7% of children identify as transgender.
We need to lock people up for taking an extra oxycodone but a kid can get gender reassignment surgery and permanently disfigure himself and the parents can't do anything to stop him?
[deleted, FR 2, RI]
I am part of the public to. It's my tax money paying the teachers salary as well. And there is no reason for you to be teaching my child about homosexuality nor trying to mold his mind about it. I view homosexuality as immoral and no you don't get to tell my kid that it's ok.
Teaching children that homosexuality actually exists and should be accepted by society is the right thing to do. It helps remove the stigma and reduce bullying, which is favored pastime among America's bigots. If you want to brainwash your kids and turn them into little nazi bigots then you need to home school them like so many religious nuts choose to do.
"I am not an American ... In my view premarital sex should be illegal" - Ajax18
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Re: Public Space and Public Education

Post by Jersey Girl »

ajax18 wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 2:33 am
It started out as consenting adults behind closed doors. Now you want to teach my 1st grader about homosexuality and tell her it's ok. Why? And why has the number of transgender people risen enormously? Up to 20% of the rising generation view themselves as intersex. We need to lock people up for taking an extra oxycodone but a kid can get gender reassignment surgery and permanently disfigure himself and the parents can't do anything to stop him?

I am part of the public to. It's my tax money paying the teachers salary as well. And there is no reason for you to be teaching my child about homosexuality nor trying to mold his mind about it. I view homosexuality as immoral and no you don't get to tell my kid that it's ok.
I really need to check on what this is about regarding first graders. Anyway, I want to say that my children have always been aware that homosexuality exists and likewise (now that I look back) trans persons. When I asked one of them in grade school why J always got invited to girl sleep overs, my child replied: J isn't a boy, Mom. J is a girl.

Out of the mouths of babes to God's ear I suppose.

Later in high school, one of my kids got detention for sticking up for a gay student. When the vice principal called me to tell me about the detention and why my child received it, my only response was: Good! Same thing kid got detention for sticking up for an AA student as well. As a parent, these events made me particularly proud.

I think when you refer to homosexuality being immoral, you are actually talking about gay sex. You must be, ajax. For the God that created you and I, also created gay persons.

I want to say something here without identifying the poster. There is a poster on this board who is gay and for as long as I've known them, they have lived a celibate life on account of their religious beliefs.

I admire that choice. At the same time, I can also imagine that that choice might possibly make for a lonely life since the purpose of sex is procreation and human bonding.

These things are difficult. I think it best for parents to teach their children about humanity. I also think too many parents fail to do so and so they school is left to teach things like sex ed. My kids voluntarily opted out of sex ed.

With the first graders...is there an opt out in place?
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

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Jersey Girl
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Re: Public Space and Public Education

Post by Jersey Girl »

Separate answer to this one.
ajax18 wrote:
Tue Apr 05, 2022 2:33 am
And why has the number of transgender people risen enormously?
For the same reasons that the so-called number of gay persons has risen over the past decades. Because trans persons are finally identifying themselves to the society that has marginalized, ostracized, and abused them in the past. They are human beings who want the right to live their lives like the rest of us.
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

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Re: Public Space and Public Education

Post by Gadianton »

Kishkumen wrote:...took issue with the student referring to public museums as "government" museums
Interesting twist of 'be in the world but not of it', I guess. I'm not a progressive. I'm fine if public schools teach all this stuff but I have no vested interest in it, and I'd be perfectly happy if they didn't. It might not be worth pushing. I mean, this is -- and I don't have hard stats here it's just my impression -- what keeps a lot of conservatives erroring on the side of unhinged right-wing politicians. It's not like Second Amendment that wouldn't be a thing without billions in lobbying and propaganda, there are a whole lot of people out there who inherently believe certain ideas about sexuality are wrong, and their minds are unlikely going to be changed. And for these people, sexuality represents the most absolute of the absolute lines. It takes memes to convince people vaccines are a government plot, but it doesn't take memes to convince people that homosexuality is wrong or that gender isn't fluid. And so the harder the left pushes to educate kids on sexuality topics in school, it's handing right-wing politicians the most powerful of tools to whip people up on their side. It's not just rednecks from the sticks, but swaths Latinos and Blacks.

I question how much the influence of school teachers matter here. I think it's hard to find people of my parents generation who are okay with same-sex relationships, but in my generation, it's harder to find people who think it's a big deal than don't. Even in the Church, I think the younger the Mormon, the more likely that, worst case scenario, it's only bad on paper, and sans the visceral reaction of older folks. Trans is a whole other curve ball. I'm not even sure what I think, and so it's going to be a heck of a battle with the conservative swaths of society over how their kids are instructed on gender identity in a public school.

I think that like music, sexuality is one of those things that kids learn from other kids and they don't care what their parents think or what their teachers think. Given media and music in America still rebels against conservative social mores, I expect that kids will figure out the social acceptability parts on their own.
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