do I understand the definition of a woman?

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Morley
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Morley »

Morley wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 5:12 pm
Markk, what determines whether a person is male or female? Your answer seems to be that one small set of an individual's chromosomes are more significant that what God-given genitalia the individual manifests.

Should (what you call) a biological male who has breasts and labia get surgically modified to appear more like a man? Or should this person use the urinal in the men's room just the way that they are?
Markk wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 10:38 pm
Morley, anyone can do what they want, and we can call them what they want to be called…for the most part I have no issue at all with that…but that does not mean we can not understand and define what a biological woman or man is and adult male and female human being.
Excellent. I'm asking you to do exactly that. So, I'll ask again:

Should (what you call) a biological male who has breasts and labia get surgically modified to appear more like a man? Or should they keep the equipment God gave them? After all, the XY chromosome makes the man, right?
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Morley
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Morley »

Markk wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 10:38 pm
As far as restroom usage there are bunch of sick people in this world that will take advantage of someone’s medical issue in order to get their jolly’s off, and that’s sad, so in my opinion I have to be carful of that in public restrooms in regards to my wife, daughter and grandchildren. Looking for things that are rare to form a blanket narrative for everyone, is not a good way to argue this, at least in my opinion. It is kind of like the defense for abortion by many is “what about those that are conceived because of rape or incest? Of the 69 million babies aborted how many fall into that category? We don’t have a fair answer for everything and we have to adapt and make tough decisions sometimes, such is life.
You didn't answer the question. Which restroom should this unmodified male (by your definition) use?
honorentheos
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by honorentheos »

Markk wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 3:39 pm
Markk, they're girls that mature into women. They may be biologically male, but they are absolutely girls and women. You don't like the implications of that, but that's you clinging to a false view of the world.

No, they are biology’s males that identify as girls and women. Why do you have a problem with the science. At least you are admitting they are biologically male…that is a small milestone.

Are they biological males, with underdeveloped genitals because of this disease or not? Why is this damning language? I have linked you to reliable sites that states exactly this, like the Cleveland Clinic.
Markk, the point of the example is it shows biological sex isn't a perfectly binary condition. In this extreme case, a girl born with external female genitals and male gonads would likely be raised as a girl with even her doctors seeing no reason to question the sex determination. Her chromosomes may be XY, making her male. But her gender is that of a girl.

When I referred to your language being damning it is regarding your reaction to what is medically a minor matter if it were not for the dissonant response to her gender not matching her chromosomes.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

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dantana wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 1:07 am
You know, sometimes I scratch my head a bit when trying to imagine the finer tunings of evolution, survival of the fittest, etc. In a lot of species, and especially homo sapiens, the males are bigger, stronger, faster. Didn't women persons with vaginas creatures that ovulate have to outrun tiggers too
Evolution is definitely bananas. Quite often in nature females are larger, if not much larger than the males. Bigger primates, from what I know, are more sexually dimorphic than smaller primate species. Perhaps when mammals get to a certain size the natural world generally favors male embiggament because to occupy physical space means one has to be able to beat the ever living crap out of lesbian primates who want the lil cutie all to herself. :D

- Doc
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Morley
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Morley »

Markk wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 10:38 pm

Morley, anyone can do what they want, and we can call them what they want to be called…for the most part I have no issue at all with that…but that does not mean we can not understand and define what a biological woman or man is and adult male and female human being.
I'm lost. If "anyone can do what they want, and we can call them what they want to be called," why do we need to "understand and define what a biological woman or man is"?
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by doubtingthomas »

Markk wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 2:04 pm
because of the disease a biology male has a external vagina
There you go! Finally some progress! As I said, I don't care if you call them a biological males. Would you agree they also have a clitoris and normal female breasts?
Markk wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 2:04 pm
take hormones.
Not all of them. People with the complete version don't have to.
Markk wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 2:04 pm
they will most likely have their testicles removed to avoid chances of cancer and other health reasons
Yes, but don't be dishonest here. People with complete androgen insensitivity have underdeveloped testicles (like a tumor) hidden somewhere in the abdomen, but they do have a visible vagina and normal female breasts.
Markk wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 2:04 pm
What you are not acknowledging is that this disease only affects males
Sure! It only affects men who have a vagina, female breasts, and a clitoris. Do you agree Markk?

Explain this
XX INTERSEX The person has the chromosomes of a woman, the ovaries of a woman, but external (outside) genitals that appear male. This most often is the result of a female fetus having been exposed to excess male hormones before birth

Let me ask you Markk, is a true gonadal intersex a man or a woman?

TRUE GONADAL INTERSEX The person must have both ovarian and testicular tissue. This may be in the same gonad (an ovotestis), or the person might have 1 ovary and 1 testis. The person may have XX chromosomes, XY chromosomes, or both. The external genitals may be ambiguous or may appear to be female or male. This condition used to be called true hermaphroditism. In most people with true gonadal intersex, the underlying cause is unknown, although in some animal studies it has been linked to exposure to common agricultural pesticides.
https://medlineplus.gov/ency/article/001669.htm
Last edited by doubtingthomas on Tue May 10, 2022 2:19 am, edited 4 times in total.
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doubtingthomas
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by doubtingthomas »

Morley wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 1:01 pm
I wish you wouldn't do this. It diminishes any argument you wish to make.

Markk is plenty intelligent.
Sure, and I am the CEO of Google.
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Markk
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Markk »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 11:41 pm
Image

Image

Image

If ^ this is a biological reality, why couldn’t gradations of such a thing be a reality? And if gradations of such a thing are a reality, then what kind of construct would we use to describe someone who isn’t 100% biological female/male, because even though their outward appearance is that of a female/male, any number of inward things, from plumbing to neural wiring, is that of a the sex opposite of their outward appearance.

A man (because society has defined what a male looks and feels like) on the outside, but a woman (because society has defined what a female looks and feels like) on the inside? What do we call these people who are so constructed after the manner shown and described above, or of its endless varieties?

They’re generally defined as transgender, because they don’t fit the biological ‘norm’ and are transitional in a literal sense.

So. In effect, is a woman a woman if they’re 38% genetically and hormonally a male? Are they less of a woman who is 11% male, or 1%? If a 60% female can be a woman, then can a 49.5% female be a woman?

In other words, can a person who presents as a woman, but because genetically and hormonally they’re actually 58% male, still be considered a female through dress and mannerisms? I’d say yes. This is how and why gender is considered a construct, along with social evolution that demanded roles for males and females, and forced the ‘in-betweener’ to choose one or the other.

How is this so difficult to either understand or to accept that braying loudly and consistently is the only recourse left to the doggedly dunning-krugers?

- Doc
It is not a question of what we look like, but what we are, at least in my opinion.

Correct me if I am wrong…but what you are implying here is that you, as a member of society, want to change the 5000 +- year old accepted norm for what a man and woman are? Not because it is right, or wrong…science has nothing to do with it, but based only on what society deems it to be? Also, we cannot as a society, according to this line of thought, choose words to describe absolute “things. In other words we cannot choose words to describe a “healthy” male or female.

In the case of AIS we should forget and ignore the scientific fact that only biological males can contract this disease…erase this from the equation and just pretend that is not the truth?

Also, It that light what do we do with society defining what a “male” is. In one breath you are confident with what a male is, yet in another unsure what a woman is? Is not male a term also accepted by society just as woman is?

Your pictures appear to be all mutations, or deformities…I am not sure about the bird…but speaking from a biological sense, is there more that two “sex’s” of human beings besides a male and female? If so what are they called?

Thanks
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Markk »

Morley wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 1:25 am
Morley wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 5:12 pm
Markk, what determines whether a person is male or female? Your answer seems to be that one small set of an individual's chromosomes are more significant that what God-given genitalia the individual manifests.

Should (what you call) a biological male who has breasts and labia get surgically modified to appear more like a man? Or should this person use the urinal in the men's room just the way that they are?
Markk wrote:
Mon May 09, 2022 10:38 pm
Morley, anyone can do what they want, and we can call them what they want to be called…for the most part I have no issue at all with that…but that does not mean we can not understand and define what a biological woman or man is and adult male and female human being.
Excellent. I'm asking you to do exactly that. So, I'll ask again:

Should (what you call) a biological male who has breasts and labia get surgically modified to appear more like a man? Or should they keep the equipment God gave them? After all, the XY chromosome makes the man, right?
It’s up to them?
honorentheos
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by honorentheos »

Markk wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 1:51 am
Morley wrote:
Tue May 10, 2022 1:25 am




Excellent. I'm asking you to do exactly that. So, I'll ask again:

Should (what you call) a biological male who has breasts and labia get surgically modified to appear more like a man? Or should they keep the equipment God gave them? After all, the XY chromosome makes the man, right?
It’s up to them?
Makes sense.
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