do I understand the definition of a woman?

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Jersey Girl
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Jersey Girl »

Markk wrote:
Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:29 pm

If you believe a 8 year old (the average age that kids stop believeing in Santa is 8.4 years old) , has the ability to make an informed decision that will affect their whole life dramatically, with possible life changing surgeries and a life of required medications (hormone treatments)…then we are certainly fundamentally opposed. Also there are policies (laws?) that are in affect that allows these kids to be counseled on this, by teachers, without parental knowledge. Do you agree with that?


Great conversation,
Thanks
In the interest of fairness, you are correct about the 8 year old. I also support your position regarding teachers counseling children on these issues without parental knowledge. Teachers are not qualified to do so. It is beyond the scope of their education and credentials as I know them to be. I suppose that would depend on the specific curriculum, school policies, state rules and regulations. I haven't laid eyes on those of course.
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Themis
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Themis »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:49 am
Themis wrote:
Sat Jun 04, 2022 9:36 pm
Yes 8 year olds and up in consultations with medical experts and parents can make rational decisions regarding their health.
100% disagree. 8-year-olds are not rational actors, are highly suggestible, and undisciplined in virtually every sense of the word. in my opinion, the can’t even begin to comprehend long-term consequences of medical decisions beyond short-term notions, and worse, if they’re being groomed into a role of some sort they simply can’t recognize the long-term effects of what’s happening to them nor the choices they make within that paradigm.

- Doc
People are taking things way to far. You act like I am saying they get to make the ultimate decisions when their parents will have final say, and it will likely be better if they take into account professional advice.
Themis
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Themis »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 1:14 am
In the interest of fairness, you are correct about the 8 year old. I also support your position regarding teachers counseling children on these issues without parental knowledge. Teachers are not qualified to do so. It is beyond the scope of their education and credentials as I know them to be. I suppose that would depend on the specific curriculum, school policies, state rules and regulations. I haven't laid eyes on those of course.
A Teacher would certainly not be qualified to counsel on gender identity issues. It's also really unrealistic that an 8 year old would be given this kind of counseling without their parents being aware or present. 8 is also potentially when puberty can take place naturally in girls but would be rare as well as any seeking this kind of advice.
Markk
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Markk »

Themis wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 3:48 am
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:49 am


100% disagree. 8-year-olds are not rational actors, are highly suggestible, and undisciplined in virtually every sense of the word. in my opinion, the can’t even begin to comprehend long-term consequences of medical decisions beyond short-term notions, and worse, if they’re being groomed into a role of some sort they simply can’t recognize the long-term effects of what’s happening to them nor the choices they make within that paradigm.

- Doc
People are taking things way to far. You act like I am saying they get to make the ultimate decisions when their parents will have final say, and it will likely be better if they take into account professional advice.
Your wrote this a few posts back…you are changing your position
Themis wrote…

I cannot comment on any specific law unless you provide what laws you are talking about. Keep in mind that we keep counseling confidence even from parents whether in their religion or a counselor at school. It's very important not to break confidence because it will create an environment where children will not talk to anyone. It's bad enough that they get a lot of poor information from the school yard.
Themis
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Themis »

Markk wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:37 am

Your wrote this a few posts back…you are changing your position
UMM No. This is the only example you have given of apples and oranges. One is talking about counselors like at school or in a religion and about what they can keep in confidence and the other is about a child getting health advice with their parents and medical professionals.

I said an 8 year old in consultation with parents and medical professionals can make rational decisions on what they may want. Can does mean will, nor does it indicate they would have final say.
Markk
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Markk »

Themis wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 5:00 am
Markk wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 4:37 am

Your wrote this a few posts back…you are changing your position
UMM No. This is the only example you have given of apples and oranges. One is talking about counselors like at school or in a religion and about what they can keep in confidence and the other is about a child getting health advice with their parents and medical professionals.

I said an 8 year old in consultation with parents and medical professionals can make rational decisions on what they may want. Can does mean will, nor does it indicate they would have final say.
This is what i wrote…

If you believe a 8 year old (the average age that kids stop believeing in Santa is 8.4 years old) , has the ability to make an informed decision that will affect their whole life dramatically, with possible life changing surgeries and a life of required medications (hormone treatments)…then we are certainly fundamentally opposed. Also there are policies (laws?) that are in affect that allows these kids to be counseled on this, by teachers, without parental knowledge. Do you agree with that?

I am not sure how to respond, are you saying out of the blue you are just telling me “I only gave you one example of apples and oranges?” That makes no sense.

The context of my assertion/question was policies and potential laws that allow teachers to secretly counsel children on very sensitive issues, and in this specific case puberty blockers and even possible sex changes. I never discussed a general what a teacher or counselor can discuss in privacy.

Anyways I am glad you have thought through this and changed your opinion, and agree that parents are to parent and make all medical decisions for their children, and the schools are to teach and counsel in full transparency.
Themis
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Themis »

Markk wrote:
Tue Jun 07, 2022 12:19 pm
The context of my assertion/question was policies and potential laws that allow teachers to secretly counsel children on very sensitive issues, and in this specific case puberty blockers and even possible sex changes. I never discussed a general what a teacher or counselor can discuss in privacy.
Do you have examples of these laws? I said I could not comment unless I have specific examples of these laws you are referring to. The article you posted on puberty blockers was informative on how they work, what they are intended to do and where they are used and not used. Do you have a specific problem you disagree with in that article?

https://health.clevelandclinic.org/what ... -blockers/
Anyways I am glad you have thought through this and changed your opinion, and agree that parents are to parent and make all medical decisions for their children, and the schools are to teach and counsel in full transparency.
I don't believe my opinion has changed and the state has never allowed, in my lifetime, parents full rights on all medical decisions for their children. Counseling again does have privacy rights even for children on what they can reveal and not reveal, and religion also tends to have some of their own rules. Many areas have kid hotlines they can call and those conversations are keep in private unless they may involve potential harm to oneself or others. This is also not something new, but has been around long before we were here.
doubtingthomas
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by doubtingthomas »

Themis wrote:
Mon Jun 06, 2022 2:56 pm
Markk wrote:
Sun Jun 05, 2022 5:29 pm
Comparing circumcision with changing the biological sex of a child, with a lifetime of treatments is hardly the same thing
Feel free to change it to changing biological sex on infants than.
Circumcision is genital mutilation and it's obviously child sexual abuse.

Circumcision is bad for mental health.
Chap
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Chap »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 10:03 pm

[...]

Circumcision is bad for mental health.
If true, that would suggest that many men in anglophone countries are affected by mental illness consequent upon circumcision. In my youth one noticed a high proportion of circumcised boys and men in a post sports shower environment, and I do not think I was able to perceive any higher incidence of mental weirdness amongst the circumcised than the uncircumcised.

But (again, if your claim is true), is it not obvious that the NRA should immediately start a campaign to dissuade parents from having their baby boys circumcised, since improving the mental health of the US population is the only way to stop mass shootings?
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Themis
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Themis »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Sat Jun 18, 2022 10:03 pm
Circumcision is genital mutilation and it's obviously child sexual abuse.
I would think almost everyone here would agree with you for female circumcision. Male circumcision has been so ingrained into western culture and religion that it is accepted as normal. I do wonder whether it should be though.
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