do I understand the definition of a woman?

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doubtingthomas
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by doubtingthomas »

Themis wrote:
Mon May 30, 2022 3:55 pm
doubtingthomas wrote:
Mon May 30, 2022 12:57 am


I don't understand why you keep arguing with Markk.
For fun. Markk certainly has some good amount of bias based on religious and political ideologies that don't like those who don't fit their binary view of man or woman. It's based on no real science and when they try to argue they end up having to jump around with distractions like ability to breed or just say it's all on the shape of a chromosome but never explain why shape is important.
Right, but imagine having a daughter with complete androgen insensitivity and some butthole saying: She is a man. That is what Markk is doing and he refuses to answer my questions.
"I have the type of (REAL) job where I can choose how to spend my time," says Marcus. :roll:
Themis
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Themis »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 12:06 am
Right, but imagine having a daughter with complete androgen insensitivity and some butthole saying: She is a man. That is what Markk is doing and he refuses to answer my questions.
Markk's position has lacked some consistency. He did say he would define them as a woman, but in a social way. He would still consider them biologically male, which I think is an incorrect understanding of how we define an individual as biologically male or female. It's mostly based on how they developed, not on genetics. In fact these examples have a person with XY have the genetics to drive female development. I'm not sure how he can define them as male when their own genetic instructions will develop female. It's the end result that matters, because even if you have the right genetic instructions to develop male, environmental factors may disrupt that and cause an individual to develop into female.

Hes a little bit stuck on the idea that XY is the recipe called male, even if the recipe instructions don't match what you need to make a male. Sure some of the instructions past down may have been alter or deleted, but when we follow those changed instruction we get female. If we have a recipe called chocolate cake and someone changed the instructions to take out the chocolate and add strawberry, do we get a chocolate or strawberry cake? Does it make sense for someone to still call the resultant cake a chocolate cake? Markk is doing just that.
Markk
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Markk »

Themis wrote:
Mon May 30, 2022 4:21 pm
Markk wrote:
Mon May 30, 2022 3:43 pm
XY individuals are not biologically female, they have a disorder such as Swyer Syndrome where the person has a XY set, but as this reads “ Because they appear female on the outside, babies with Swyer syndrome are usually raised as girls and develop a female gender identity”… . They will not produce female hormones that allow them to go through puberty, and will require female hormone treatments. With hormone treatments and a donated egg, they might be able to reproduce.

Point being folks with disorders like these are rare, and does not impede us from defining what a woman is.

https://medlineplus.gov/genetics/condit ... -syndrome/
You do realize that the first sentence "Swyer syndrome is a condition that affects sex development" talks about biological sex development? That should be a big indicator that a persons biological sex is all about how they develop, not on what shape a chromosome takes. They lack some of the genetic information that will drive male development, so female development tends to happen. They will develop this way every time just like those XY with all the genetic information to drive male development will consistently develop down male pathways. Barring no environmental factors disrupting development.

I'm curious why you don't think how a fetus develops sexually should not be how we define their biological sex, given that a person with this syndrome will not develop down male pathways?
What you are missing and not acknowledging is that it is biologically a male fetus, but because of the disease, can’t develop fully functioning male sex organs, and that some choose to identify as male.


I'm curious why you don't think how a fetus develops sexually should not be how we define their biological sex, given that a person with this syndrome will not develop down male pathways?
In the case of Swyer’s…it is a underdeveloped male fetus, not a female fetus, that is simply the science. The individual can’t enter into puberty as a female/male because they are biologically an underdeveloped XY/male, and will require either male or female hormone treatments depending on their post adolescence identification. There are scores of medical articles explaining this Themis, I am not just making this up.

And this does not keep us from identifying what a woman is…it is a disease that affects male fetus development, it it not natural path that turns a male XY into a female XX. It is a path that leads to identification decisions because of the disease.

I’ll catch up later

Thanks
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Doctor Steuss
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Doctor Steuss »

While I’m apparently having a somewhat good noggin’ day, I thought I’d add to the conversation a little. In published case studies for things like Turner syndrome**, and XX Male (especially for SRY Positive cases), there is a distinction between phenotype (if they have the equatorial giblets you’d expect), and karyotype (the ole chromosomes).

Also, case studies for SRY-Positive XX generally start because of factors outside of phenotype. Things like infertility treatment/testing, or because of testicular cancer (which is statistically rare for the karyotype, it almost inevitably ends up as a published case study) which leads to genetic testing for one reason or another. The phenotypical normality is usually highlighted in the case studies as well, to note that there is no deviation (i.e. normal pubic hair, normal testosterone levels, normal testicular volume, etc.). They also occasionally contain more in-depth testing showing things like no female gonadal tissues.

Basically, in published case studies in journals, a person with an XX karyotype, but with a sneaky SRY gene that’s hitched a ride, are more often-than-not referred to as phenotypical males.


**ETA: For clarification, with Turner syndrome, you'd see reference to phenotypical female, with an X karyotype.
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Themis »

Markk wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 12:34 pm
What you are missing and not acknowledging is that it is biologically a male fetus, but because of the disease, can’t develop fully functioning male sex organs, and that some choose to identify as male.
OK. If we test a fetus before sexual development and the genetic information tells us the fetus will develop down female lines, is the fetus genetically male or female?
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Morley
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Morley »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 7:09 pm
While I’m apparently having a somewhat good noggin’ day, I thought I’d add to the conversation a little. In published case studies for things like Turner syndrome**, and XX Male (especially for SRY Positive cases), there is a distinction between phenotype (if they have the equatorial giblets you’d expect), and karyotype (the ole chromosomes).

Also, case studies for SRY-Positive XX generally start because of factors outside of phenotype. Things like infertility treatment/testing, or because of testicular cancer (which is statistically rare for the karyotype, it almost inevitably ends up as a published case study) which leads to genetic testing for one reason or another. The phenotypical normality is usually highlighted in the case studies as well, to note that there is no deviation (i.e. normal pubic hair, normal testosterone levels, normal testicular volume, etc.). They also occasionally contain more in-depth testing showing things like no female gonadal tissues.

Basically, in published case studies in journals, a person with an XX karyotype, but with a sneaky SRY gene that’s hitched a ride, are more often-than-not referred to as phenotypical males.


**ETA: For clarification, with Turner syndrome, you'd see reference to phenotypical female, with an X karyotype.
Three times through, reading carefully while moving my lips, with a couple of side excursions to Google, and I think I understood this. Apparently, a somewhat good noggin' day for me, too.
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Doctor Steuss
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Doctor Steuss »

Morley wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 10:44 pm
Three times through, reading carefully while moving my lips, with a couple of side excursions to Google, and I think I understood this. Apparently, a somewhat good noggin' day for me, too.
The bounties of the noggin gods roll forth.

Huhzah!
Markk
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Markk »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 7:09 pm
While I’m apparently having a somewhat good noggin’ day, I thought I’d add to the conversation a little. In published case studies for things like Turner syndrome**, and XX Male (especially for SRY Positive cases), there is a distinction between phenotype (if they have the equatorial giblets you’d expect), and karyotype (the ole chromosomes).

Also, case studies for SRY-Positive XX generally start because of factors outside of phenotype. Things like infertility treatment/testing, or because of testicular cancer (which is statistically rare for the karyotype, it almost inevitably ends up as a published case study) which leads to genetic testing for one reason or another. The phenotypical normality is usually highlighted in the case studies as well, to note that there is no deviation (i.e. normal pubic hair, normal testosterone levels, normal testicular volume, etc.). They also occasionally contain more in-depth testing showing things like no female gonadal tissues.

Basically, in published case studies in journals, a person with an XX karyotype, but with a sneaky SRY gene that’s hitched a ride, are more often-than-not referred to as phenotypical males.


**ETA: For clarification, with Turner syndrome, you'd see reference to phenotypical female, with an X karyotype.

Hey Steuss,

I believe I linked to TS before…basically it is a disorder that affects one of the X’s, in a XX fetus and individual (female). AIS affects males, while TS affects females.


“Turner syndrome is a congenital condition, meaning it's something a person is born with. Each of us is born with two chromosomes. If you're female, you were born with two X chromosomes. If you're a male, you are born with one X and one Y chromosome. Turner Syndrome occurs when one of the X chromosomes is missing, either partially or completely.”


https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/d ... r-syndrome

https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-con ... c-20360782
Markk
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Markk »

Themis wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 9:26 pm
Markk wrote:
Tue May 31, 2022 12:34 pm
What you are missing and not acknowledging is that it is biologically a male fetus, but because of the disease, can’t develop fully functioning male sex organs, and that some choose to identify as male.
OK. If we test a fetus before sexual development and the genetic information tells us the fetus will develop down female lines, is the fetus genetically male or female?
Before 8 weeks I am not sure one can tell any sex…but I could be wrong. Are you talking about a certain disorder that is detected early? If so a better context is required. If the fetus/baby is diagnosed with PAIS or CAIS…it will be genetically male, if TS, then genetically female. If with ovo-testi that becomes more difficult I suppose, which why many with this disorder are upset with doctors and parents, although trying to their best, who make gender identifications for them at birth, in that some want to identify later as women, some as men, and some as neither…the videos I linked discuss this fairly well.

Thanks
Themis
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Themis »

Markk wrote:
Wed Jun 01, 2022 2:13 am
Before 8 weeks I am not sure one can tell any sex…but I could be wrong. Are you talking about a certain disorder that is detected early? If so a better context is required. If the fetus/baby is diagnosed with PAIS or CAIS…it will be genetically male, if TS, then genetically female. If with ovo-testi that becomes more difficult I suppose, which why many with this disorder are upset with doctors and parents, although trying to their best, who make gender identifications for them at birth, in that some want to identify later as women, some as men, and some as neither…the videos I linked discuss this fairly well.

Thanks
I believe by 8 weeks sexual development has started, but say 4 weeks the fetus is neither male or female at this point. To me when looking at genetic male or female it makes more sense to look at the genetic information on the chromosomes then looking at their shape. Society has always tended to define biological sex by phenotype or what characteristics a new born has. Your definition of women does not seem to have consistency, and in some cases you say yes they are a women, but not technically. Or a woman is XX, or a woman is one who can get pregnant, implying if one does not fit that they are not real women.
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