do I understand the definition of a woman?

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Themis
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Themis »

Markk wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 5:39 pm
I am not sure why the last paragraph is important to this subject? The overwhelming risks to women of sexual and violence has, always been throughout history been by men. Again why is this important in trying to sort through all this?
Really? You are going to pretend to not know the answer since it is one of the main opposition to giving trans gender people recognition.
What do you say to a woman, who lives her life with all the things a girl, teenager, young woman, mother, grand mother, going through all the trials and emotions, good and bad, of a woman, and then have a 50 year old man wake up in the morning and identify as a woman, and who not only wants, but demnds a full seat at the table of womanhood?
I don't see how it hurts a women. Does this women also deny a seat to those females who could not have children. Can they ever be mothers or does social convention give them that title because they may have raised a child who was not biological their own.
Markk
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Markk »

Themis wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 6:24 pm
Chap wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 5:10 pm
I have suggested that we should avoid confusion by reserving the word 'sex' for the identity of a body as male or female (to be decided on scientific grounds). Whether we call someone a man or a woman is in my view best seen as a question of social convention.
I see the lines between the two being more and more blurred as technology allows for more and greater changes from one sex to another. We are moving into the arena of growing organs, transplants and editing DNA. This has real implications on this issue.
If what folks are saying is true, that it is feelings that dictate true gender. What happens when technology starts changing feelings, either way? In other words if a man feels he is a woman, can technology change those feelings so that he loses his feelings of being a woman, and can remain a biological man?

I agree it is very blurred.
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Jersey Girl
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Jersey Girl »

Markk wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 6:26 pm
Jersey Girl wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 5:54 pm


You say..."You're going to need a support system. Please tell me how I can serve you."

Now. With all the legal things you are probably thinking about, of course an attorney needs to be part of that support system.

p.s. It's not a matter of waking up in the morning and re-identifying. It's a matter of stepping forward with what one already knows about themselves and has likely known (or at least suspected) since childhood.
So you believe that they should be a woman, with all the “privileges” and “things” that come with being a woman, except perhaps sports?…because of inner feelings?

What would this support system do in regards to making them a woman? If they already have the feelings of a woman, in a mans biological body? In other wards I could equally support them as a man..right? Or if it is a woman deciding to become a man, am I more qualified as a man, than yourself to support them?
Markk...I have been ill and am not exactly in a position to make my brain gears work right now. Maybe I can take one statement at a time and try to concentrate on each thing that way. Here's one reply:


What would this support system do in regards to making them a woman?

The support system wouldn't do anything to making them a woman.

The support system would accompany them during the journey and beyond. So on a support system, I would see (and don't hold me to this I'm a bit foggy right now).

FRIENDS and FAMILY who are willing to go the distance for the person in question.
Doctor
Therapist
Psychiatrist
Guided support group specifically for trans persons
Endocrinologist or whomever specializes in transitions, I confess, I don't know at the moment. Specialty doctor.
Plastic surgeons for a variety of procedures
One or more attorneys
Clergy if applicable

Markk...this might not make sense to you at the moment and given the complexity of the topic but...the answer to almost every single question you could possibly ever face is usually--->love.
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

Slava Ukraini!
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Jersey Girl
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Jersey Girl »

Markk wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 6:39 pm
Themis wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 6:24 pm


I see the lines between the two being more and more blurred as technology allows for more and greater changes from one sex to another. We are moving into the arena of growing organs, transplants and editing DNA. This has real implications on this issue.
If what folks are saying is true, that it is feelings that dictate true gender. What happens when technology starts changing feelings, either way? In other words if a man feels he is a woman, can technology change those feelings so that he loses his feelings of being a woman, and can remain a biological man?

I agree it is very blurred.
It's not feelings. It's thoughts and perceptions. It's psychology, Markk. It's how one perceives themselves. Your self concept.

You need to understand what gender is and that it is a social construct. Boys and girls are raised differently by their families and society based on those social constructs. That sets the perception of what constitutes a boy and girl in place.

Example: Boys toys vs. girls toys. Boy colors vs. girl colors.

You need to understand what your sex is. It's not the same as your perceived gender. Sex refers to your physical characteristics, what reproductive organs you have. And...to complicate matters more...whether or not you have reproductive organs of BOTH sexes.

This isn't as easy a topic as oh...Bruce Jenner up and decides to grown his hair long and wear dresses and make up.

I don't think I'm up for the climb on this right now but I will come back and try as best I can.

Homework: Learn the difference between one's sex and one's gender. ;-)

p.s. FYI I didn't know about these differences either until I studied it in my coursework for child development. It took a while for me to wrap my head around it so don't worry about feeling confused. Everyone in the world is confused about something right this very second. Pinky swear they are.
Last edited by Jersey Girl on Tue May 03, 2022 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

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Markk
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Markk »

Themis wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 6:38 pm
Markk wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 5:39 pm
I am not sure why the last paragraph is important to this subject? The overwhelming risks to women of sexual and violence has, always been throughout history been by men. Again why is this important in trying to sort through all this?
Really? You are going to pretend to not know the answer since it is one of the main opposition to giving trans gender people recognition.
What do you say to a woman, who lives her life with all the things a girl, teenager, young woman, mother, grand mother, going through all the trials and emotions, good and bad, of a woman, and then have a 50 year old man wake up in the morning and identify as a woman, and who not only wants, but demnds a full seat at the table of womanhood?
I don't see how it hurts a women. Does this women also deny a seat to those females who could not have children. Can they ever be mothers or does social convention give them that title because they may have raised a child who was not biological their own.
To your 1st point…Not by me…not even close. I am not pretending anything here.

2nd point…Well, are you going to pretend that many women take offense to this….this is part of the argument? And I don’t think I said it hurts a women did I…maybe unless they use their biological make up as an advantage?

in my opinion… Many or most might say “do what you want to do, or call yourself what you want to call yourself….” But I doubt that few older women would think a transgendered person that identifies as a woman can possibly ever understand what a biological women is and what they go through in life.” This is a narrative pushed and carried my a very small group, and politicized.

Again I agree it is very blurred.
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Jersey Girl
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Jersey Girl »

Markk wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 6:59 pm


in my opinion… Many or most might say “do what you want to do, or call yourself what you want to call yourself….” But I doubt that few older women would think a transgendered person that identifies as a woman can possibly ever understand what a biological women is and what they go through in life.”
It doesn't matter if they can understand what a bio woman goes through in life.
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

Slava Ukraini!
Themis
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Themis »

Markk wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 6:39 pm
If what folks are saying is true, that it is feelings that dictate true gender.
I suppose they do play a role, but as Jersey Girl has said, it is not that simple.
What happens when technology starts changing feelings, either way? In other words if a man feels he is a woman, can technology change those feelings so that he loses his feelings of being a woman, and can remain a biological man?
I suspect yes. So much of how we think and feel is biochemistry. We are not as free as we think to feel how ever we want. A family member was getting treatment to restore his liver back to healthy functioning. A side affect of the drug he was taking can cause bursts of emotion for no reason, and he said they were definitely happening for no reason.
I agree it is very blurred.
Then perhaps we should recognize gender is not black and white and give them more recognition of who they think and fell they are.
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Chap »

Themis wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 6:24 pm
Chap wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 5:10 pm
I have suggested that we should avoid confusion by reserving the word 'sex' for the identity of a body as male or female (to be decided on scientific grounds). Whether we call someone a man or a woman is in my view best seen as a question of social convention.
I see the lines between the two being more and more blurred as technology allows for more and greater changes from one sex to another. We are moving into the arena of growing organs, transplants and editing DNA. This has real implications on this issue.
No doubt things can and will get more complicated than they are. But we are not really there yet, so let's deal with where we are now.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
Chap
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Chap »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 6:41 pm
Markk...this might not make sense to you at the moment and given the complexity of the topic but...the answer to almost every single question you could possibly ever face is usually--->love.
Rock-ribbed atheist that I am, I do agree with this, both on experiential and wider humanistic grounds.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
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Jersey Girl
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Jersey Girl »

Chap wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 7:18 pm
Jersey Girl wrote:
Tue May 03, 2022 6:41 pm
Markk...this might not make sense to you at the moment and given the complexity of the topic but...the answer to almost every single question you could possibly ever face is usually--->love.
Rock-ribbed atheist that I am, I do agree with this, both on experiential and wider humanistic grounds.

It doesn't matter if you are theist or atheist. I say it holds true.
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

Slava Ukraini!
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