do I understand the definition of a woman?

[honorentheos]

There have been a few quite good comments in that direction in my opinion. Chap really said what needed said early on. Gadianton's comments mid-thread were insightful. I believe DT brought up a good example that helped illuminate the problems with demanding nature behave like an engineered system with strict binary definitions, too. Themis made good points and I'd give Markk credit for engaging and reading rather than dismissing comments.

Markk believes in the creator Christian god.

I knew that. His responses are generally consistent with someone with that view and disbelief in evolution.

So what does that mean for the state of the discussion?

[Markk]

LOL…

What's so funny?

What’s “funny” is, at least to me, is that you have failed to keep up with the subject and learn with it and from it. I have learned a lot since I started reading about this stuff, and can see a clear separation between DSD and people just wanting to identify for non medical reasons. There is a much wider spectrum of self gender identification, and more importantly reasons for self identification. I understand better Honors non -binary position and Themis view from pre fetus identification ( 8 weeks +- from conception…I disagree with a a lot of what they believe it means, but their positions are thought out beyond the standard political talking points, and for what it is worth, I respect that.

At just about every point you have failed, and were and are lost once you got past the talking points you have been programmed to believe. Now you just counter with an emotional Ad-hom or derailments to another subject, your last one is bring my faith into the argument.

Themis and Honor (when he is in a good mood )make me think and read, even if I don’t agree, however all you have done is shown an inability to look at the data and deal with it. “Science is dick about it” was one of your more profound arguments. That is why I wrote LOL, though mostly out of irony.

O’well…I love ya anyways

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Markk,

Have you considered that epigenetics may be involved in the cause or causes that lead to gender incongruence, whether it’s physical or psychological (which is probably the same thing)?

- Doc

[Themis]

Themis...I assume it's that biological sex isn't baked in absolutely into the code but contingent on the equivalent of a hand-copied recipe being followed in a mobile kitchen on the go. A normal ride down a freeway with all the required ingredients.available yielding different results from a bump ride on a Backcountry forest service road with wild swings in environmental conditions and ingredient substitutions that the result is sensitive to like a souffle being another matter. Or something.

There is a lot involved and as a result biological sex can be more of a spectrum and we all start at the same point when it comes to sex. Every fetus has the building blocks for male or female. I agree that Markk's position has softened and that a number of us have learned new information from participating.

Gender? Out the window. I don't get the sense any current participants differentiate between gender and sex, actually. I expect this contributes to the chaos.

I definitely would differentiate between gender and sex, but I focused on sex with the idea of moving onto gender later.

[doubtingthomas]

At just about every point you have failed, and were and are lost once you got past the talking points you have been programmed to believe.

And what do I believe Markk? I am here to simply ask questions. I don't have a strong opinion on this subject, unlike you. I am not trying to have a debate with you Jesus Christ!

Now you just counter with an emotional Ad-hom or derailments to another subject, your last one is bring my faith into the argument

My questions are Ad hominem?

Nice try Markk, you simply don't want to answer my questions.

But I'll try again.

Ephesians 5:22"Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church"

Let me ask you Markk, how exactly would Ephesians 5:22 apply to a married person with CAIS? Do you believe the Lord is cool with same sex marriage?

And a follow up question. How exactly would Jesus heal a person with CAIS who identifies as female?

[Markk]

At just about every point you have failed, and were and are lost once you got past the talking points you have been programmed to believe.

And what do I believe Markk? I am here to simply ask questions. I don't have a strong opinion on this subject, unlike you. I am not trying to have a debate with you Jesus Christ!

Now you just counter with an emotional Ad-hom or derailments to another subject, your last one is bring my faith into the argument

My questions are Ad hominem?

Nice try Markk, you simply don't want to answer my questions.

But I'll try again.

Ephesians 5:22"Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church"

Let me ask you Markk, how exactly would Ephesians 5:22 apply to a married person with CAIS? Do you believe the Lord is cool with same sex marriage?

And a follow up question. How exactly would Jesus heal a person with CAIS who identifies as female?

LOL…for someone that does not have a strong opinion, you sure share a strong opinion that what i write is wrong and call me a lot of different names for what opinions I share. You don’t engage others with “questions” in that in your opinion, a strong one, is that I am wrong. The reality is that you have exercised all your talking points options, and can just share your “opinions” with ad-hom’s.

Ask the question to Themis, or to Honor if that is what you are truly here for…but we both know that is not why you are here..you are here to attack me for my opinion, in that it is different than yours…even if just an opinion based on a few spoon feed talking points from you tribe. .

No you answers are ad-Homs…you don’t want to understand any of this at all, and that is okay…II just shows me what you are made of.

Your question about what the Bible teaches or what Jesus does or thinks is use a diversion to your ignorance on the subject.

[Markk]

Themis...I assume it's that biological sex isn't baked in absolutely into the code but contingent on the equivalent of a hand-copied recipe being followed in a mobile kitchen on the go. A normal ride down a freeway with all the required ingredients.available yielding different results from a bump ride on a Backcountry forest service road with wild swings in environmental conditions and ingredient substitutions that the result is sensitive to like a souffle being another matter. Or something.

There is a lot involved and as a result biological sex can be more of a spectrum and we all start at the same point when it comes to sex. Every fetus has the building blocks for male or female. I agree that Markk's position has softened and that a number of us have learned new information from participating.

Gender? Out the window. I don't get the sense any current participants differentiate between gender and sex, actually. I expect this contributes to the chaos.

I definitely would differentiate between gender and sex, but I focused on sex with the idea of moving onto gender later.

It has softened in the sense of reasons why folks identify as a man and a woman…for obvious medical reasons. It is a interesting study on and about people that share these different diseases and disorders. At the same time I also understand better that one can define what a biological man and woman are, and that in all this that definition is basically the bench mark for gender identifications. In many ways in our discussion Themis we are both correct for what we believe, but equally wrong for what we deny. But learning is not a bad thing.

[doubtingthomas]

LOL…for someone that does not have a strong opinion, you sure share a strong opinion that what i write is wrong

I stated many times that I agree with your sources, so what the hell Markk?

My questions are NOT a personal attack, so please answer them.

Ephesians 5:22"Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church"

Let me ask you Markk, how exactly would Ephesians 5:22 apply to a married person with CAIS? Do you believe the Lord is cool with same sex marriage?


And a follow up question. How exactly would Jesus heal a person with CAIS who identifies as female?

[Chap]

Ludwig Wittgenstein wrote:

"What is your aim in philosophy? To show the fly the way out of the fly-bottle."

Philosophical Investigations, #309.

... at page 110.

Several people have tried hard on this thread to indicate the exit. But the poor little insect just seems to want to stay in the bottle and buzz ...

[Themis]

It has softened in the sense of reasons why folks identify as a man and a woman…for obvious medical reasons.

It certainly explains why those with obvious differences from a typical biological male or female may result in different gender identities. I would not call them medical reasons since it suggests something is wrong with them and they are in need of medical treatment. in my opinion Nature likes diversity.

Now we know there is another group that you would say do not have any of these developmental conditions, but whose gender identity does not match their biological sex. Given that biological sex is a messy broad spectrum do you think there could be other biological chemistry here that may contribute to some people feeling their biological sex does not fit how the may identify their gender? I'm reminded of homosexuality and thinking why so many people from religious and cultural backgrounds that hated Homosexuality would be gay.