do I understand the definition of a woman?

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huckelberry
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by huckelberry »

Lets see, men women are of the same species and are conceived and grown the same way.They have a great deal in common. One would expect there to be some overlap. Observation says amount of overlap varies with occasional extensive intermixture of aspects.

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Markk
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Markk »

Themis wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 6:21 pm
Markk wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 4:21 pm
I’ve stated this several times…it is not me defining this, I have linked several sites that explain this.
As have I. They consider around 5 factors like chromosomes, gonads, hormones, internal reproductive anatomy, and external genitalia.
https://www.coursehero.com/study-guides ... ology/sex/

You may notice that how a fetus develops determines biological sex, and science tends to now consider intersex as a third biological sex. So a fetus before sexual development does not have a biological sex yet for a number of reasons that will or may influence development.
The XX fetus and XY fetus’ are defined as such because they have XX and XY chromosomes…disease and syndrome can alter the fetus’ development
Some XX fetus's develop into biological males or intersex, and some XY fetus's develop into females or intersex, so what about XX or XY, outside of environmental factors, determines whether a fetus will develop into one of the three sex's?

I disagree…CFR that science tends to know determine intersex as a biological third sex please?

“Observation” by a doctor determines biological sex, I do not agree with that at all, especially in a general sense? That is not science, the might determine their sex in regards to identification, but not biologically. Take some time and watch the videos I pasted and read a bit more. Many if not most of intersex people interviewed are angry because doctors choose what sex they should be at birth, and just not let them be as they are.

Intersex carries a broad varieties of disorders and syndromes…most of which prohibit pregnancy and/or fertilization. In other words biologically, left alone without medical assistance these people cannot regenerate and without medical help (e.g.hormone treatments) many will struggle with their health for different reasons…including gender identification.

If an intersex person with lets say PAIS, was determined by a doctor at birth by observation to “be female”…but after puberty discovered they had testies, and choose to identify as a male, which would require surgery and hormone treatments, including testosterone.

A person born with ovo-testi disorder, the doctor and parent have to decide what they might identify as at birth, but again later they might change what they will identify as, and if you watched the documentaries many are pissed the doctors just did not let them be what they are…but remember all these intersex conditions or DSD…are disorders…at least from what I have read so far….and I also just read that intersex is no longer an accepted term but “disorders of sex differentiation,” or DSD, is the latest term, but intersex seems to still be used exhaustively …so…???



Interesting conversation thanks.
doubtingthomas
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by doubtingthomas »

Markk wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 9:35 pm

Interesting conversation thanks.
It's not Markk.

But let me ask you. Would it be okay for a young person with complete androgen insensitivity to change in the girls locker room?
"I have the type of (REAL) job where I can choose how to spend my time," says Marcus. :roll:
Markk
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Markk »

doubtingthomas wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 11:43 pm
Markk wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 9:35 pm

Interesting conversation thanks.
It's not Markk.

But let me ask you. Would it be okay for a young person with complete androgen insensitivity to change in the girls locker room?
If they had a surgically restored penis, sack and balls… in my opinion no…what is your opinion on that? Or should they change in the boys locker room?

No one said this is a easy subject to weigh in on DT. There are going to be a lot of grey areas…and there are emotional reality’s that need to be dealt with by folks that contract the disease, and those that live with them. If the person with CAIS identifies as a woman and lives their life as a woman yes, I have absolutely no issue with that…but it does not change their biologically DNA, nor our ability to define what a woman is.
Themis
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Themis »

Markk wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 9:35 pm
I disagree…CFR that science tends to know determine intersex as a biological third sex please?
This is a good article
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... mplistic1/

My point is that science as it learns more has moved away from the binary view of biological sex. This is why we have been discussing a new category refereed to as intersex.
“Observation” by a doctor determines biological sex, I do not agree with that at all, especially in a general sense? That is not science, the might determine their sex in regards to identification, but not biologically. Take some time and watch the videos I pasted and read a bit more. Many if not most of intersex people interviewed are angry because doctors choose what sex they should be at birth, and just not let them be as they are.
Observation is how the medical/scientific communities have done it since they have existed. Most until more recently probably never got DNA tests as part of being born. I do agree that when we identify a intersex new born that waiting to see how they may identify is a good idea.
Some XX fetus's develop into biological males or intersex, and some XY fetus's develop into females or intersex, so what about XX or XY, outside of environmental factors, determines whether a fetus will develop into one of the three sex's?
I keep asking this question because you seem to still misunderstand having an XX does not always equal being a female as they develop in the womb. Same with an XY does not always equal a male. It's not the shape of a chromosome that matters. It's the genetic information on the chromosome that counts. Remember the five factors I listed for biological sex. Only one is genetic. It is what has most of the influence on the other four factors. Not everyone with XY has the same genetic information on their Y chromosome, just as not everyone with an XX has the same information to develop as female.
A person born with ovo-testi disorder, the doctor and parent have to decide what they might identify as at birth, but again later they might change what they will identify as, and if you watched the documentaries many are pissed the doctors just did not let them be what they are…but remember all these intersex conditions or DSD…are disorders…at least from what I have read so far….and I also just read that intersex is no longer an accepted term but “disorders of sex differentiation,” or DSD, is the latest term, but intersex seems to still be used exhaustively …so…???
I can agree with their anger, and whatever term you want to use there is a lot of overlap or fuzziness with biological sex and gender, and it's doesn't end with birth or puberty.
Themis
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Themis »

Markk wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 1:44 am
I have absolutely no issue with that…but it does not change their biologically DNA, nor our ability to define what a woman is.
Is it not their biological DNA that's instructs their development into a female?
Markk
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Markk »

Themis wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 5:13 am
Markk wrote:
Sat May 21, 2022 9:35 pm
I disagree…CFR that science tends to know determine intersex as a biological third sex please?
This is a good article
https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... mplistic1/

My point is that science as it learns more has moved away from the binary view of biological sex. This is why we have been discussing a new category refereed to as intersex.
“Observation” by a doctor determines biological sex, I do not agree with that at all, especially in a general sense? That is not science, the might determine their sex in regards to identification, but not biologically. Take some time and watch the videos I pasted and read a bit more. Many if not most of intersex people interviewed are angry because doctors choose what sex they should be at birth, and just not let them be as they are.
Observation is how the medical/scientific communities have done it since they have existed. Most until more recently probably never got DNA tests as part of being born. I do agree that when we identify a intersex new born that waiting to see how they may identify is a good idea.
Some XX fetus's develop into biological males or intersex, and some XY fetus's develop into females or intersex, so what about XX or XY, outside of environmental factors, determines whether a fetus will develop into one of the three sex's?
I keep asking this question because you seem to still misunderstand having an XX does not always equal being a female as they develop in the womb. Same with an XY does not always equal a male. It's not the shape of a chromosome that matters. It's the genetic information on the chromosome that counts. Remember the five factors I listed for biological sex. Only one is genetic. It is what has most of the influence on the other four factors. Not everyone with XY has the same genetic information on their Y chromosome, just as not everyone with an XX has the same information to develop as female.
A person born with ovo-testi disorder, the doctor and parent have to decide what they might identify as at birth, but again later they might change what they will identify as, and if you watched the documentaries many are pissed the doctors just did not let them be what they are…but remember all these intersex conditions or DSD…are disorders…at least from what I have read so far….and I also just read that intersex is no longer an accepted term but “disorders of sex differentiation,” or DSD, is the latest term, but intersex seems to still be used exhaustively …so…???
I can agree with their anger, and whatever term you want to use there is a lot of overlap or fuzziness with biological sex and gender, and it's doesn't end with birth or puberty.
Thanks, it was a interesting article. But again what is getting lost in all this, and ignored when i continually bring it up…is that every article I have read and linked, including this one confirm DSD (Intersex) are diseases, syndromes, and disorders…away from the norm of a heathy XX/XY person.

The article is also clear that DSD’s are rare, and run a wide gambit, and not a third sex, but again disorders from the norm.

Most of the DSD are rare, and most cannot reproduce because it is a disorder and not normative in regards to reproduction.

We both agree, at least I think we do, that identification is most often critical to a person affected with DSD…they can either identify as a man or a woman…or a ever growing gender rainbow. But again, this does not detour us from being able to define what a biological woman is, in fact I could argue that the growing science makes it easier.

Let me ask you this…is a perfectly healthy XY or XX individual, with no DSD, which is by far the normative…”men and women respectively when they reach adulthood?”
Is it not their biological DNA that's instructs their development into a female?
DNA(Genes) are a big part of DSD’s, and CAIS in genes carried by the mother, it is a genetic condition, My point was and is that a male with CAIS, is still a genetically male, but with underdeveloped sexual organs and lacking the ability accept the hormones to fully develop as a male…and because of this identify as female in most cases. And it was in regards to a specific question by DT.

Thanks
Themis
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Themis »

Markk wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 3:18 pm
Thanks, it was a interesting article. But again what is getting lost in all this, and ignored when i continually bring it up…is that every article I have read and linked, including this one confirm DSD (Intersex) are diseases, syndromes, and disorders…away from the norm of a heathy XX/XY person.

The article is also clear that DSD’s are rare, and run a wide gambit, and not a third sex, but again disorders from the norm.

Most of the DSD are rare, and most cannot reproduce because it is a disorder and not normative in regards to reproduction.
I don't think anyone is really ignoring it so much as they already understand this and that it is not relevant to what we are talking about.
Let me ask you this…is a perfectly healthy XY or XX individual, with no DSD, which is by far the normative…”men and women respectively when they reach adulthood?”
Biologically I would say yes, but perfectly healthy is subjective.
DNA(Genes) are a big part of DSD’s, and CAIS in genes carried by the mother, it is a genetic condition, My point was and is that a male with CAIS, is still a genetically male, but with underdeveloped sexual organs and lacking the ability accept the hormones to fully develop as a male…and because of this identify as female in most cases. And it was in regards to a specific question by DT.
Genetics is what determines metabolic pathways that cause us to develop in certain ways including biological male or female. If a genetic condition causes one to form female characteristics than they would be female biologically regardless if they have XX, XY, XXY, X, etc. If we say someone is genetically male what that means is their genetic makeup barring things like environmental problems will develop male characteristics consistently, even if they have XX sex chromosomes.
doubtingthomas
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by doubtingthomas »

Markk wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 1:05 am
XYY affects males…
You ignored "X0". Nice job Markk!
Markk wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 1:44 am
If the person with CAIS identifies as a woman and lives their life as a woman yes, I have absolutely no issue with that
Really? Wouldn't that make Jesus mad?

Is a person with CAIS a spiritual son or daughter of sky father?
"I have the type of (REAL) job where I can choose how to spend my time," says Marcus. :roll:
Markk
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Re: do I understand the definition of a woman?

Post by Markk »

Themis wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 7:02 pm
Markk wrote:
Sun May 22, 2022 3:18 pm
Thanks, it was a interesting article. But again what is getting lost in all this, and ignored when i continually bring it up…is that every article I have read and linked, including this one confirm DSD (Intersex) are diseases, syndromes, and disorders…away from the norm of a heathy XX/XY person.

The article is also clear that DSD’s are rare, and run a wide gambit, and not a third sex, but again disorders from the norm.

Most of the DSD are rare, and most cannot reproduce because it is a disorder and not normative in regards to reproduction.
I don't think anyone is really ignoring it so much as they already understand this and that it is not relevant to what we are talking about.
Let me ask you this…is a perfectly healthy XY or XX individual, with no DSD, which is by far the normative…”men and women respectively when they reach adulthood?”
Biologically I would say yes, but perfectly healthy is subjective.
DNA(Genes) are a big part of DSD’s, and CAIS in genes carried by the mother, it is a genetic condition, My point was and is that a male with CAIS, is still a genetically male, but with underdeveloped sexual organs and lacking the ability accept the hormones to fully develop as a male…and because of this identify as female in most cases. And it was in regards to a specific question by DT.
Genetics is what determines metabolic pathways that cause us to develop in certain ways including biological male or female. If a genetic condition causes one to form female characteristics than they would be female biologically regardless if they have XX, XY, XXY, X, etc. If we say someone is genetically male what that means is their genetic makeup barring things like environmental problems will develop male characteristics consistently, even if they have XX sex chromosomes.
It is absolutely relevant. Added X’s or Y’s to the standard pattern are disorders, syndromes and diseases, not other sexes as you asserted, but basically mutations of the standard XX/XY pattern. As an example XXX syndrome can lead to kidney issues, learning disabilities, seizures. Researchers try to cure this and other abnormalities, not sustain and further them.

XXY is Klinefelter syndrome, which has many negative effects, X syndrome or “fragile X” has negative effects, like anxiety, learning disabilities, seizures, and other disabilities. Having disorders like these, which most are very rare, do not negate the standard male/female pattern, and make it “not” possible to define what a woman is…which is what this thread is about. Except for maybe a few (from what I have read), like ovi-testi syndrome…these syndromes can be traced to a biological male or female designation…even if the disorder might demand the person to identify differently such as with AIS. Or, augury and life long hormone therapy might be required.

So again it is absolutely relevant.. these are rare diseases, disorders, and syndromes, not a normal biological assignment of genes/chromosomes.
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