White Supremacist kills 10 in Buffalo Supermarket

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
User avatar
canpakes
God
Posts: 7062
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:25 am

Re: White Supremacist kills 10 in Buffalo Supermarket

Post by canpakes »

K Graham wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 3:35 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 6:58 am
Kevin, none of what you posted addresses the plain meaning of "personal attack." None of it changes the fact that what you are doing over and over and over again is attacking Ajax as a person rather than respond to the substance of his posts. We've discussed how to apply the personal attack rule, especially in light of the flood of reports we received about personal attacks by Atlanticmike and Binger. We're applying the rule as consistently as we can. If you look at some of the actions we took based on reports of personal attacks over the past few months, it would be wildly inconsistent to make an exception for attacking Ajax the person by repeatedly calling him a Nazi.
I can concede calling him a Nazi could be a personal attack, but I don't always call him a Nazi. You've warned me even about alluding to his past on Stormfront which isn't a personal attack, it is just stating a fact. And you never answered the question. Is it always a "personal attack" to call a Nazi a Nazi?

Kevin, the way I see it, that post contained a couple of insinuations that bordered on personal attack language, but nothing else that truly addressed what ajax had posted. Shades allows for some pretty good leeway on ‘attacks’ but if the attack is basically the only content, then the post risks being booted.

Myself, I’m not a fan of the tendency to label folks as Nazis unless they flash their membership card, and at last check we have no registered members with the name of Adolf Hitler. Use of either to identify other posters is tiresome. in my opinion, anyway.
User avatar
Res Ipsa
God
Posts: 9568
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:44 pm
Location: Playing Rabbits

Re: White Supremacist kills 10 in Buffalo Supermarket

Post by Res Ipsa »

K Graham wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 3:35 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 6:58 am
Kevin, none of what you posted addresses the plain meaning of "personal attack." None of it changes the fact that what you are doing over and over and over again is attacking Ajax as a person rather than respond to the substance of his posts. We've discussed how to apply the personal attack rule, especially in light of the flood of reports we received about personal attacks by Atlanticmike and Binger. We're applying the rule as consistently as we can. If you look at some of the actions we took based on reports of personal attacks over the past few months, it would be wildly inconsistent to make an exception for attacking Ajax the person by repeatedly calling him a Nazi.
I can concede calling him a Nazi could be a personal attack, but I don't always call him a Nazi. You've warned me even about alluding to his past on Stormfront which isn't a personal attack, it is just stating a fact. And you never answered the question. Is it always a "personal attack" to call a Nazi a Nazi?
We rely mostly on reports, especially when it comes to personal attacks. If you reported a personal attack on you and you think we made the wrong call, I'd be happy to start a discussion on it in the mod forum. If you want to report past attacks now, please report the post (but not posts before we became the mod team) and we'll take a look. That's the deal everyone gets.
I'm not sure I've ever reported anything except maybe once as a joke. So why are you acting like this is about my reports going unanswered? I'm pointing out how your concept of personal attack is one of your own making. The fact that other mods agree with you doesn't change that fact. It didn't apply on this board for more than a decade with previous mods and I highly doubt Shades would agree with it either.
In the past, you would have been able to appeal to Shades. Unfortunately, that's no longer available. If you're regretting what you wished for, I'd suggest asking Shades to resume his role as head moderator.
I only mentioned Shades because you brought him up.

What I wished for??
I wrote up a long-winded rebuttal, point by point, but mangled the formatting tags so badly it wasn't worth the effort of straightening it out.

The question of whether something qualifies as a personal attack is heavily dependent on specific facts and context. To answer your question, I'd need to know what you mean when you say your hypothetical person "is" a Nazi. If I self-identified as a "Nazi," then I would not consider calling me a Nazi to be a personal attack. Otherwise, Nazi's were the people that forcibly seized property owned by Jews, destroyed businesses Jews, forcibly deported Jews, forcibly imprisoned Jews in concentration camps, literally worked Jews to death in concentration camps, and murdered Jews, both in mobile vans and then in extermination camps. Other than self-identified Nazis or neo-Nazis, how can accusing someone of endorsing that kind of treatment of fellow humans be anything other than a personal attack?

And, no, clubbing someone repeatedly about something they did close to 15 years ago (tempus fugit) as an attack on their character is not just stating facts -- unless Tucker Carlson has just been "asking questions" about immigration and elections. The whole concept of "Sprit of the Law" is all about rejecting technical, rules lawyering arguments like you are making. Whether you explicitly describe Ajax as a "Nazi" or you use references to something he did 15 years ago to insinuate that he is a Nazi today, the result is the same: an attack on Ajax as a person to discredit Ajax as a person instead of responding to the substance of whatever he posted. In what universe is attacking a person somehow not a "personal attack?"

The mod team has had lots of discussions about how to uniformly and consistently apply the personal attack rule to the extent it is possible to do so. Shades has read all of our discussions. He has provided us with direction. He is aware of how we are approaching applying the rule. He has seen how we are have applied it over the months we've been moderators. He has never been hesitant to (with utmost politeness and courtesy) ask moderators to change how they are applying the rules to more closely conform with his intent. Although I can't disclose private communications, Shades knows me and how I approach moderation, including conforming how I approach the rules with his intent. If he told us that how we have been applying the personal attack rule was inconsistent with his intent, I would propose that we change our approach to bring it in line with Shades' intent. And, to me, the fact that Shades stepped down as lead moderator doesn't change that in the slightest. I view the basis for what I do here as a deal I made with Shades. And, although the terms of that deal have changed a bit, I feel obligated to make best efforts to implement the rules consistent with Shades' intent. And if he popped into this thread and told me that what I've said here is inconsistent with his intent, I'd turn on a freaking dime to change my approach.

I'm not acting like this is about reports. You engaged in whataboutism by claiming that we hadn't taken action with respect to comments about your genitals. I brought up reports as a reminder of how we go about our moderator tasks. With respect to personal attacks, we don't scrutinize the board word for word looking for personal attacks to moderate. We generally rely on reports, on the general theory that if none of the users feel personally attacked, why should we intervene? So, if you think you've been subject of a personal attack, report it and we'll take a look. But complaining about alleged inconsistent moderation weeks or months ago when you didn't feel it was worth reporting at the time has exactly zero impact on how I approach the situation that's in front of me. I'm happy to review past decisions for consistency, but only if I'm provided with links to the specific posts at issue. Otherwise, I can't either correct a past mistake or take steps not to make similar mistakes in the future. I have no interest in discussing your recollection of events that occurred weeks or months ago.

To my best recollection, prior to the formation of the current mod team, this issue of whether calling Ajax a Nazi was discussed exactly once. I recall EA and I both expressing our opinions, although I can't recall whether I was a moderator at the time. Again, to my best recollection, that discussion took place in the black and not in the red, and no official ruling was made. To apply the rule as you suggest would effectively require us to create a special exception to the way we have interpreted and been applying the rule for months. That's contrary to the whole goal of uniform application of the rules, and as one of the three mods, I don't and won't support that. Given that I'm only one out of three, I would also defer if canpakes and Xeno decided that your approach is correct.

My comment about appealing to Shades was intended to address the practical realities of this situation. As a practical matter, the fact is that the mod team has concluded, whether done directly or by insinuation, your posts that refer to Ajax is a Nazi violate the rule on personal attacks that applies everywhere except Prison and Telestial. The practical reality is that I don't find your arguments persuasive to any extent. I view them as technical rules lawyering that ignores the spirit of the rule. As Shades has delegated to the mod team the authority to interpret and apply the rules using our best judgment, the practical reality is also that we're the ones who interpret and apply the rules. So, the practical reality is that your options are to persuade two of the three members of the team that your assertions/insinuations that Ajax is a Nazi are not personal attacks, bring about a Shadus ex Machina appearance that confirms your interpretation of the rules, stop playing the man and start playing the ball, or ignore us and post however you damn well choose.
he/him
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.

Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
User avatar
Res Ipsa
God
Posts: 9568
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:44 pm
Location: Playing Rabbits

Re: White Supremacist kills 10 in Buffalo Supermarket

Post by Res Ipsa »

Moksha wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 3:47 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 3:16 pm


I think NHM is a great example, my flightless friend. As is parallelomania. As is the Bible Code. What do you think are the odds that I could form an acrostic based on the fall of Moroni's trumpet that spells out Moksha? The M is is a cinch. M=Moroni. I can crib the S. The possibilities are endless.
You make it sound like proving Moksha true is an easy matter.
Who needs proof? I have faith.
he/him
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.

Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 8979
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:04 am

Re: White Supremacist kills 10 in Buffalo Supermarket

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

userbase - “TB12_GOAT, who used to post on www.TheNewEnglandPatriotsAreTheGreatest.com, and constantly bitches about the NY Jets said he definitely doesn’t hate the Jets, but just so happened to pick the alphanumeric combination that means Tom Brady #12, and claims he really likes goats, despite GOAT literally meaning ‘greatest of all time’ and in conjunction with TB12 his username means ‘The quarterback Tom Brady is the greatest quarterback of all time’.”

Mod - “Hrm, nope. I don’t get that from his username, and you people pointing out that he’s a ringer for the Pats and Tom Brady are just attacking him. Play the ball, not the man.”

userbase - “But he literally bitches about the Jets all the time, and his username is literally a ref to his Pats fandom. We’re just pointing out that his fixation with the Jets is because he’s a Pats megafan, and it’s right there in his handle he created on that Pats’ site.”

Mod - “Hrm, nope. I don’t get that from “GOAT”. You’re jumping to conclusions.”

userbase - *provides multiple references showing NFL experts linking the term ‘GOAT’ to Tom Brady*

Mod - “Nope. I watch the CBS network on occasion and they show programs that have nothing to do with the Patriots. You’re just piecemealing things together and pinning it on TB12_GOAT because you’re troublemakers.”

userbase - :roll:
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
User avatar
Res Ipsa
God
Posts: 9568
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:44 pm
Location: Playing Rabbits

Re: White Supremacist kills 10 in Buffalo Supermarket

Post by Res Ipsa »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 7:16 pm
userbase - “TB12_GOAT, who used to post on www.TheNewEnglandPatriotsAreTheGreatest.com, and constantly bitches about the NY Jets said he definitely doesn’t hate the Jets, but just so happened to pick the alphanumeric combination that means Tom Brady #12, and claims he really likes goats, despite GOAT literally meaning ‘greatest of all time’ and in conjunction with TB12 his username means ‘The quarterback Tom Brady is the greatest quarterback of all time’.”

Mod - “Hrm, nope. I don’t get that from his username, and you people pointing out that he’s a ringer for the Pats and Tom Brady are just attacking him. Play the ball, not the man.”

userbase - “But he literally bitches about the Jets all the time, and his username is literally a ref to his Pats fandom. We’re just pointing out that his fixation with the Jets is because he’s a Pats megafan, and it’s right there in his handle he created on that Pats’ site.”

Mod - “Hrm, nope. I don’t get that from “GOAT”. You’re jumping to conclusions.”

userbase - *provides multiple references showing NFL experts linking the term ‘GOAT’ to Tom Brady*

Mod - “Nope. I watch the CBS network on occasion and they show programs that have nothing to do with the Patriots. You’re just piecemealing things together and pinning it on TB12_GOAT because you’re troublemakers.”

userbase - :roll:
:roll: Your inability to follow your own "you do you" advice and accept simple disagreement on a matter of opinion is weird. If Ajax had chosen as his screen name "killalljews," I'd be comfortable reaching firm conclusions about his intent. I have no idea what his thought process was 15 years ago, and I've seen far too many folks jump to entirely wrong conclusions based on the kind of "assessment" you are making. If you are confident in your conclusion, you don't need my blessing. Even if I thought that Ajax was actually a full on jew hating nazi who salivates at the thought of gassing Jews, my charge as moderator is to base actions on what people post, not who they are. From time to time, someone here cuts loose on some terrible thing somebody did in the past. I don't care about what somebody on the board did 15 years ago. I've got no interest in judging Ajax, you, Kevin or anyone else based on the worst thing I know about them. And that's especially true when it comes to doing the moderation thing. And what set this whole part of the discussion off was Kevin's objection to moderator actions.
he/him
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.

Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 8979
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:04 am

Re: White Supremacist kills 10 in Buffalo Supermarket

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 8979
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:04 am

Re: White Supremacist kills 10 in Buffalo Supermarket

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Moksha wrote:
Tue May 17, 2022 6:57 am
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Sun May 15, 2022 1:46 pm
Hrm. Why does this sound so familiar?

- Doc
Atlantic Mike, Binger, and Ajax?
Anyway, back to the topic. Yes, people like the ones Moksha mentioned are deeply resentful and emasculated, like the Buffalo shooter. The GQP seems to have a nose for white victimhood, meaning that its very effective at finding issues that can easily be reframed as reverse discrimination against white people, meaning that they, the carnival barkers at the helm of the GQP, can sniff out white resentment, and can tap into it by pointing out the ways in which certain kinds of social, economic, cultural, and political changes haven’t included deference for white people.

A few examples like the restructuring of the US economy, ie, outsourcing manufacturing to non-white countries, or retard FOX News eyeball culture-war issues like the "war on Christmas" or Confederate monuments or Libs in Hollywood wanting to take erase white history - these are those hot button news moments that were big game changers for the GQP reflecting the deep insecurity of their base - that America is changing and evolving change leaving common whites behind non-whites.

So, yeah, the GQP is really good at representing those changes as systemic efforts, THE DEEP STATE, to displace and discriminate against white people, which makes them so effective at garnering white resentment. I think this is a bad long-term strategy, but hey. Luck for the GQP people are stupid as crap, and their memories are goldfish-tier short, so they can always adjust fire down the road and all will be forgiven.

In the meantime, what’s a little blood for the Tree of Liberty?

- Doc

eta:

Image
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 8979
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:04 am

Re: White Supremacist kills 10 in Buffalo Supermarket

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

This is the shooter’s bedroom:

Image

No. Really. That’s his bedroom. And yes, it’s a literal physical manifestation of 4chan culture. I know it hits a little too close to home for our bronies down in Prison, but this is the effect the Internet’s sewer is having on susceptible minds. Note also, brony BingBong’s behavior and trolling - it’s the fruits that were sewn by alt-Right trolls, Russian troll farms, and some other bad actors. They’re literally useful idiots susceptible to online programming.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
User avatar
MeDotOrg
2nd Quorum of 70
Posts: 686
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:55 pm
Location: San Francisco

Re: White Supremacist kills 10 in Buffalo Supermarket

Post by MeDotOrg »

Looking at his bedroom, the word 'incel' comes to mind. Perhaps I am being unfair, but a My Little Pony collection along with the Stars and Bars is a pretty creepy combination.
The great problem of any civilization is how to rejuvenate itself without rebarbarization.
- Will Durant
"Of what meaning is the world without mind? The question cannot exist."
- Edwin Land
User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 8979
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:04 am

Re: White Supremacist kills 10 in Buffalo Supermarket

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

MeDotOrg wrote:
Fri May 20, 2022 7:01 pm
Looking at his bedroom, the word 'incel' comes to mind. Perhaps I am being unfair, but a My Little Pony collection along with the Stars and Bars is a pretty creepy combination.
You’re not being unfair. It’s, are you ready for this?:

1 - TradCon White Supremacism

2 - Bronies - My Little Ponies, believe it or not have been used to appeal to children, and then themes of racial superiority, sex, and violence incorporated to hook them into the larger message which is:

3 - MAGA, well, Dark MAGA now. The ultimately aim of these folks is to create Ameristan, but with a sort of regional control ceded to arious socio-religious theocrats cooperating with one another. The balkanization of the US is an expected result which leads us to

4 - Militarism. Hence the military gear and guns

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
Post Reply