White Supremacist kills 10 in Buffalo Supermarket

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Res Ipsa
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Re: White Supremacist kills 10 in Buffalo Supermarket

Post by Res Ipsa »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 2:00 am
Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 1:55 am


I told you what it communicated to me. As I’m not a whites supremacist, the name Ajax doesn’t communicate “white” to me.
Fair enough. It communicates “piece of crap racist who is using an online handle to signal his white supremacist ideology to the board.”

- Doc
by the way, which white supremacist art gallery is shown in the pics?
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Re: White Supremacist kills 10 in Buffalo Supermarket

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 2:18 am
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 2:00 am


Fair enough. It communicates “piece of crap racist who is using an online handle to signal his white supremacist ideology to the board.”

- Doc
by the way, which white supremacist art gallery is shown in the pics?
That’s a non sequitur meant to make your position on this matter ‘not wrong’ which you hate.

https://www.vox.com/2019/11/6/20919221/ ... zuckerberg
Why the alt-right loves ancient Rome

And Greece, too.
Donna Zuckerberg, editor-in-chief of Eidolon, an online Classics magazine, examines this trend in her book, Not All Dead White Men: Classics and Misogyny in the Digital Age. I spoke to her recently about the appeal of ancient history to the alt-right, how it’s used to reinforce misogyny and racism, and why the field of Classics has a major problem on its hands.

A lightly edited transcript of our conversation follows.

Sean Illing

I think the best way to start is to have you explain why ancient Greece and Rome is so culturally significant to the alt-right.

Donna Zuckerberg

“Western civilization” has, for the alt-right, become culturally acceptable code for “white culture.” So celebration of Western civilization is really a way to celebrate the cultural achievements of white men. They see ancient Greece and Rome as a starting point for this imagined idea of Western civilization, and later it evolves to include Christianity in the medieval period.
My point in pointing out that white supremacists embracing Greco-Roman culture and history was to help you understand why Xanax would include Ajax into his handle. The bit about white supremacists claiming that ancient Greeks and Romans were fair-skinned whites was to help you understand why they, white supremacists, would embrace ancient Greeks and Romans, and why Xanax, who is a white supremacist and tradcon would want Ajax the White Warrior Who was Glorified in Classical Greek Literature as part of his handle IN CONJUNCTION WITH ‘Adolf Hitler’ and a slave-owning Confederate General.

Jesus, RI. Just admit this one damned time you’re not right and move on.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Re: White Supremacist kills 10 in Buffalo Supermarket

Post by Res Ipsa »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 2:38 am
Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 2:18 am


by the way, which white supremacist art gallery is shown in the pics?
That’s a non sequitur meant to make your position on this matter ‘not wrong’ which you hate.

https://www.vox.com/2019/11/6/20919221/ ... zuckerberg
Why the alt-right loves ancient Rome

And Greece, too.
Donna Zuckerberg, editor-in-chief of Eidolon, an online Classics magazine, examines this trend in her book, Not All Dead White Men: Classics and Misogyny in the Digital Age. I spoke to her recently about the appeal of ancient history to the alt-right, how it’s used to reinforce misogyny and racism, and why the field of Classics has a major problem on its hands.

A lightly edited transcript of our conversation follows.

Sean Illing

I think the best way to start is to have you explain why ancient Greece and Rome is so culturally significant to the alt-right.

Donna Zuckerberg

“Western civilization” has, for the alt-right, become culturally acceptable code for “white culture.” So celebration of Western civilization is really a way to celebrate the cultural achievements of white men. They see ancient Greece and Rome as a starting point for this imagined idea of Western civilization, and later it evolves to include Christianity in the medieval period.
My point in pointing out that white supremacists embracing Greco-Roman culture and history was to help you understand why Xanax would include Ajax into his handle. The bit about white supremacists claiming that ancient Greeks and Romans were fair-skinned whites was to help you understand why they, white supremacists, would embrace ancient Greeks and Romans, and why Xanax, who is a white supremacist and tradcon would want Ajax the White Warrior Who was Glorified in Classical Greek Literature as part of his handle IN CONJUNCTION WITH ‘Adolf Hitler’ and a slave-owning Confederate General.

Jesus, RI. Just admit this one damned time you’re not right and move on.

- Doc
What do you mean this one dammed time? I admitted being wrong in this very thread, and it’s no big deal. I’m not the one claiming a supernatural ability to read Ajax’s mind. You can jump to all the conclusions you want about why Ajax picked the name Ajax. My unwillingness to jump with you has nothing to do with being right or wrong.
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Re: White Supremacist kills 10 in Buffalo Supermarket

Post by ajax18 »

I can’t even begin to grasp why you think peaceful protesting is equivalent to the use of force to change the result of an election. Are the protesters breaking into houses to use physical violence to force Clarence Thomas at gunpoint to resign and be replaced by Merrick Garland?

Clearly, there’s a whole bunch of folks who slept through high school civics. Americans have the Constitutional right to speak, to assemble, and to petition their government for the redress of grievances. That’s what protesting is.
'

Then they can protest at the supreme court steps. You can't go to a justices private residence and protest outside of there house. This is clearly the mob trying to intimidate the justices. It wasn't too long ago that the left was suggesting that we couldn't even question or criticize a justices decision when the shoe was on the other foot.
Even if it’s Constitutional, the protesters are not attempting violent overthrow of the government.
No they're just trying to intimidate the government. What if a MAGA crowd went in front of Sotomayor's house and started chanting "Lock her up!
Then maybe shouted at her kids at all hours of the night, "You're mom's a murderer! Etc."
As for why no one has been arrested for leaking the draft opinion, I suspect it’s because the leak violated custom and practice as opposed to an actual law. The Supreme Court is a co-equal branch of government, and it has jurisdiction over its internal procedures. The other two branches have no authority to pass laws about or regulate how the Court goes about deciding cases, including the circulation of drafts. I haven’t looked into it, but I’m not sure any law was broken.
If it was a law clerk or lower level attorney working for one of the liberal justices they should be disbarred. If it was Sotomayor, this is certainly worthy of impeachment but I'm not sure what that would accomplish. It's like impeaching Biden or using the 25th amendment on him when the Republicans take over Congress. Congratulations, you just elected Kamala Harris to the presidency. In any event I guess this sets the precedent for leaking when Republicans start to win back power and put MAGA supporters in positions now occupied by the Deep State.
So, the Court is responsible for any investigation. If it has asked the DOJ for assistance, then I assume it would do so. If it was intentionally leaked by an employee, they’ll be fired. If it was a Justice, the Court will have to figure out how to handle the situation. The Court itself does not have the Constitutional authority to fire a Justice. It could ask the Congress to initiate impeachment proceedings, which I think is the only way to remove a Justice. Good luck finding 60 votes in the Senate for that, regardless of who leaked it.
Yeah, not till November.
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Re: White Supremacist kills 10 in Buffalo Supermarket

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

RI,

That’s right, you admitted that you thought Ajax18’s avatar was a different southern racist Confederate General, and not the other southern racist Confederate General he’s using. -_-

Whatever the case may be, with regard to “jumping to conclusions”, I’ve spent more than enough time lurking on and reading the Internet’s sewer system and feel confident in my assessment that a guy who was posting thousands of times on Stormfront, who picked a handle of ‘Ajax’ that has dual meanings for that forum, who just ‘oops’ picked the numerical value of 1 & 8 where it literally means ‘Adolf’ & ‘Hitler’ within white supremacist forums is lying about his intent with using it here.

If you’re still skeptical, I recommend you peruse /pol/ and any number of tradcon sites to get a sense of why someone would incorporate a classical Greek name, along with ‘Adolf Hitler’, in conjunction with a picture of a racist, slave-owning, Confederate General.

This is a long paper detailing Identity Evropa’s activities, but you can just skim and browse to get a sense of what the Alt-Right’s view of ancient Greece’s and Rome’s role places in their white identity movement:

https://repository.brynmawr.edu/cgi/vie ... ext=theses

tl;dr - Greece and Rome were white, something something Scandinavians and German inherited their culture, lots of fascist and racial heritage crap

You can also google something like “greeks were white 4chan” and read the threads. You’ll see lots of claims that they were white and that admixture ‘diluted’ their whiteness, and then lots of bickering ensues. Make sure you have an updated ad blocker if you choose to do this.

The point is that there’s a long, sordid Internet history of white supremacists laying claim to Greek and Roman culture as white culture. in my opinion, it’s no mistake, not by a long shot, that Ajax18 created the handle he did.

- Doc
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Re: White Supremacist kills 10 in Buffalo Supermarket

Post by Res Ipsa »

ajax18 wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 3:34 am
I can’t even begin to grasp why you think peaceful protesting is equivalent to the use of force to change the result of an election. Are the protesters breaking into houses to use physical violence to force Clarence Thomas at gunpoint to resign and be replaced by Merrick Garland?

Clearly, there’s a whole bunch of folks who slept through high school civics. Americans have the Constitutional right to speak, to assemble, and to petition their government for the redress of grievances. That’s what protesting is.
'

Then they can protest at the supreme court steps. You can't go to a justices private residence and protest outside of there house. This is clearly the mob trying to intimidate the justices. It wasn't too long ago that the left was suggesting that we couldn't even question or criticize a justices decision when the shoe was on the other foot.
Even if it’s Constitutional, the protesters are not attempting violent overthrow of the government.
No they're just trying to intimidate the government. What if a MAGA crowd went in front of Sotomayor's house and started chanting "Lock her up!
Then maybe shouted at her kids at all hours of the night, "You're mom's a murderer! Etc."
As for why no one has been arrested for leaking the draft opinion, I suspect it’s because the leak violated custom and practice as opposed to an actual law. The Supreme Court is a co-equal branch of government, and it has jurisdiction over its internal procedures. The other two branches have no authority to pass laws about or regulate how the Court goes about deciding cases, including the circulation of drafts. I haven’t looked into it, but I’m not sure any law was broken.
If it was a law clerk or lower level attorney working for one of the liberal justices they should be disbarred. If it was Sotomayor, this is certainly worthy of impeachment but I'm not sure what that would accomplish. It's like impeaching Biden or using the 25th amendment on him when the Republicans take over Congress. Congratulations, you just elected Kamala Harris to the presidency. In any event I guess this sets the precedent for leaking when Republicans start to win back power and put MAGA supporters in positions now occupied by the Deep State.
So, the Court is responsible for any investigation. If it has asked the DOJ for assistance, then I assume it would do so. If it was intentionally leaked by an employee, they’ll be fired. If it was a Justice, the Court will have to figure out how to handle the situation. The Court itself does not have the Constitutional authority to fire a Justice. It could ask the Congress to initiate impeachment proceedings, which I think is the only way to remove a Justice. Good luck finding 60 votes in the Senate for that, regardless of who leaked it.
Yeah, not till November.
I call BS on the left saying that you can't question or criticize a Justice's decision. Questioning and criticizing decisions of the judicial system at all levels, including the Supreme Court, has been as American as apple pie forever. Where do you come up with this kind of nonsense?

Actually, I believe the very same law prohibits them from protesting on the steps of the Supreme Court. There's a great case about that. It involved a nun who broke the law by standing on the Supreme Court steps holding a sign that had the text of the First Amendment on it. I honestly can't recall how the case came out. I'll have to dig it up.

Intimidating, huh? Are they erecting gallows on Clarence Thomas's lawn? Banging on his doors and windows? Brandishing assault weapons? I've been in front of a number of Federal Judges. You don't intimidate them. The only difference between God and a Federal Judge is that God can be held in contempt of court. That's not to defend rude conduct. But why shouldn't Supreme Court justices be exempt from what conservatives dish out to school boards and health departments? That's a trick question: I don't approve of either. In fact, I think protesting at the homes of Supreme Court Justices is stupid and counterproductive, but stupid and unproductive appears to be par for the course in America these days.

Still, it's nowhere close to "insurrection," which was your original claim.

And, surprise, law clerks don't take the bar before clerking for a Justice. And there's no necessary reason for an employee of the Court to be a member of the bar, either. Fired? I agree. And my best guess is that it would have a substantially negative impact on getting admitted to a bar. I haven't cracked open to my state's rules to check.

It's interesting to me that you single out Sotomayor. Shouldn't the question of whether the leak warrants impeachment be the same for all of the justices? Why single out the not white liberal Justice? Why not the white liberal man or the white liberal woman?

Why do you pretend that republicans need a precedent to leak documents? They have ample precedent on their own side of the aisle. And spare me the threats. That's what it always comes down to with you.
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Re: White Supremacist kills 10 in Buffalo Supermarket

Post by Res Ipsa »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 3:52 am
RI,

That’s right, you admitted that you thought Ajax18’s avatar was a different southern racist Confederate General, and not the other southern racist Confederate General he’s using. -_-

Whatever the case may be, with regard to “jumping to conclusions”, I’ve spent more than enough time lurking on and reading the Internet’s sewer system and feel confident in my assessment that a guy who was posting thousands of times on Stormfront, who picked a handle of ‘Ajax’ that has dual meanings for that forum, who just ‘oops’ picked the numerical value of 1 & 8 where it literally means ‘Adolf’ & ‘Hitler’ within white supremacist forums is lying about his intent with using it here.

If you’re still skeptical, I recommend you peruse /pol/ and any number of tradcon sites to get a sense of why someone would incorporate a classical Greek name, along with ‘Adolf Hitler’, in conjunction with a picture of a racist, slave-owning, Confederate General.

This is a long paper detailing Identity Evropa’s activities, but you can just skim and browse to get a sense of what the Alt-Right’s view of ancient Greece’s and Rome’s role places in their white identity movement:

https://repository.brynmawr.edu/cgi/vie ... ext=theses

tl;dr - Greece and Rome were white, something something Scandinavians and German inherited their culture, lots of fascist and racial heritage crap

You can also google something like “greeks were white 4chan” and read the threads. You’ll see lots of claims that they were white and that admixture ‘diluted’ their whiteness, and then lots of bickering ensues. Make sure you have an updated ad blocker if you choose to do this.

The point is that there’s a long, sordid Internet history of white supremacists laying claim to Greek and Roman culture as white culture. in my opinion, it’s no mistake, not by a long shot, that Ajax18 created the handle he did.

- Doc
You do you, right? I'm perfectly comfortable not jumping with you. I'm also perfectly comfortable addressing the content of Ajax's posts as opposed to crying "Nazi" when he posts.

by the way, the total number of Ajax's posts on Stormfront is 64 -- not "thousands." Is that another example of your "assessment" abilities?
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Re: White Supremacist kills 10 in Buffalo Supermarket

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

It’s about on par with you confusing Nathan Bedford Forrest with Thomas Jonathan damned "Stonewall" Jackson. Let’s chalk it up to my old man brain. -_-

Anyway. Back to the topic.

This imagery is from just one thread I clicked on minutes ago:

Image

Benoist is a traditionalism guy, by the way.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

And that’s just half the crap that was on ONE thread. Any of these themes seem familiar to long-time discussion board residents? It’s a constant pastiche of far-right imagery that’s meant to program the mind into a state of fear and outrage and othering. Perhaps most adults can withstand this sort of memeification of the mind, but there’s simply no way a young brain can, in my opinion.

In the last Stephenson book I read, ‘Fall’, he described the far-Right Conservatives of the near future sharing and streaming series of image and sound bites that wouldn’t make any sense to the outsider, but it was meant to induce fear and mistrust (that was the gist of it, anyway). That series of images when taken together seem fairly random to someone from the outside, who isn’t familiar with 4chan culture, but it makes perfect sense to people who’ve spent enough time on the board. Now multiply that thread with that imagery by thousands of times, and it’s a wonder we don’t have more kids flipping out and either shooting others or blowing their brains out. It’s either demoralization or outrage, depending on the brain that soaks in their indoctrination.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Re: White Supremacist kills 10 in Buffalo Supermarket

Post by K Graham »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Wed May 18, 2022 1:35 am

Man, your analogies are as over the top as Ajax’s.
You're doing your "both sides are equal" thing again. Maybe you feel like you have to do this all the time to be a good moderator, I don't know.
This isn’t Neuremberg, War criminals were prosecuted because they committed war crimes, not because they were Nazis, and Ajax isn’t war criminal.
Of course, being a war criminal wasn't the point. Just ask yourself this question. Is there ever a time when a Nazi can be called a Nazi without it being a "personal attack"? Being associated with white supremacy isn't just an accident. It was a conscious choice ajax made and when he was outed for it he initially lied about it and then disappeared from the forum for a while. He knew at that point his background meant he had absolutely zero credibility, especially when speaking on the racial topics that consume him. If he was truly repentant, and truly cared so much about being lumped in with racists, then he'd change his moniker and profile pic.

They only reason you keep bringing up posts made over a decade ago on another site is to attack who Ajax is as a person. For you to pretend it is anything other than a personal attack is disingenuous.
You're literally doing what you just criticized Doc of doing. You accused him of trying to read Ajax's mind, whereas you have no problem doing that with me by insisting not only that my intentions are malicious, but also denying me the right to set the record straight, otherwise I'm just being "disingenuous." As I've stated, it isn't a "personal attack" to bring up someone's own words or actions from the past. You're a lawyer for crying out loud, so you of all people here know how that discredits someone. Discrediting a witness on the stand for their obvious bias isn't a "personal attack."
One of the two necessary components of “personal attack” is that it must be personal. Ajax’s presence here is not “personal.” Comments that he makes that are not about or directed at you are not “personal.” Being offended at posts he made 10 years ago or a general racist comment he makes does not magically transform posts not about or directed at Kevin Graham into personal attacks on Kevin Graham.
At least not in the holy book of Res Ipsa. :lol:
There was some back and forth on this issue between EA and I. To my knowledge, Shades never weighed in. EA and I agreed on the vast majority of Decisions. But his argument that true statements can never be personal attacks is not supported by the rule of the the plain meaning of the words personal and attack. This is an issue the mod team has discussed, and we’re not going to perpetuate an incorrect interpretation of the rules.
Shades never weighed in probably because Shades doesn't have a problem with it. I mean you guys didn't do crap after some folks here were mocking me over a surgical procedure I had done a few years ago. The likely reason? Because it was information I had willingly shared with the forum. I was told by someone, maybe it was Shades, that this was the reason why subgenius, Ajax, mike, etc were allowed to mock me for it. And having surgery does nothing to reduce my credibility on any given subject. It was clearly nothing but a personal attack and you guys just sat idly by and let it happen.

Far from getting special treatment, it seems the rules actually change when Kevin Graham starts to use those same rules that were used against him for years.
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Re: White Supremacist kills 10 in Buffalo Supermarket

Post by Res Ipsa »

Kevin, none of what you posted addresses the plain meaning of "personal attack." None of it changes the fact that what you are doing over and over and over again is attacking Ajax as a person rather than respond to the substance of his posts. We've discussed how to apply the personal attack rule, especially in light of the flood of reports we received about personal attacks by Atlanticmike and Binger. We're applying the rule as consistently as we can. If you look at some of the actions we took based on reports of personal attacks over the past few months, it would be wildly inconsistent to make an exception for attacking Ajax the person by repeatedly calling him a Nazi.

We rely mostly on reports, especially when it comes to personal attacks. If you reported a personal attack on you and you think we made the wrong call, I'd be happy to start a discussion on it in the mod forum. If you want to report past attacks now, please report the post (but not posts before we became the mod team) and we'll take a look. That's the deal everyone gets.

In the past, you would have been able to appeal to Shades. Unfortunately, that's no longer available. If you're regretting what you wished for, I'd suggest asking Shades to resume his role as head moderator.

So, unless you can convince two out of the three of us that constantly referring to Ajax isn't a personal attack, you're kinda stuck. Maybe you'll have better luck with canpakes and Xeno. I hope you decide to simply stop playing the man and play the ball instead when you are in kingdoms other than Prison or Telestial. You are perfectly free to engage in personal attacks in those kingdoms, just like everyone else. Read Atlanticmike's posts there. He totally gets it.
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