Corrine Brown (D) to plead guilty before 2nd trial

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Re: Corrine Brown (D) to plead guilty before 2nd trial

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Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 3:12 pm
Ajax, what’s your understanding of “intersectional” and why do you claim its part of a hierarchy?
It's from Ben Shapiro's podcast. I think he means how many ways in which you're a minority and therefore the victim of prejudice and discrimination. So race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. So being black would you put you up their on the hierarchy, but being a black woman would raise you even higher, and to get even more privilege or special treatment because of the history of the country and past discrimination, being homosexual would elevate you even higher still.

I think the OJ Simpson case was interesting in determining which minority status is higher on the intersectional hierarchy of legal and political power. On the one hand Nichole Brown Simpson was female and usually females are favored by the court, especially in domestic and family law cases. But being female was no match for OJ Simpson being black and ultimately that card proved to be far more powerful and higher up the intersectional hierarchy totem pole than the gender card.
Last edited by ajax18 on Thu May 19, 2022 4:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Corrine Brown (D) to plead guilty before 2nd trial

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If she's guilty, she should have spared us all the expense of a first trial. That being said:

I can’t help but think/wonder how many times jurors have likely said “I have a gut feeling that they are guilty/innocent” without it so much as getting an eyebrow raise. Is ascribing the feeling to a divine power really all that different?
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Re: Corrine Brown (D) to plead guilty before 2nd trial

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Doctor Steuss wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 3:56 pm
If she's guilty, she should have spared us all the expense of a first trial. That being said:

I can’t help but think/wonder how many times jurors have likely said “I have a gut feeling that they are guilty/innocent” without it so much as getting an eyebrow raise. Is ascribing the feeling to a divine power really all that different?
That’s what the majority opinion said, and I think that’s right.
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Re: Corrine Brown (D) to plead guilty before 2nd trial

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I can’t help but think/wonder how many times jurors have likely said “I have a gut feeling that they are guilty/innocent” without it so much as getting an eyebrow raise.
I think a gut feeling is similar and I can't see how you could disqualify a juror for admitting he comes in with certain biases. As Res said the difference would be if someone were to say, "My gut has spoken and there is no evidence you can show me that would make me change my mind." And yet the fact is that most of us don't change our minds or our biases based on evidence. If we do it takes an enormous amount of time and evidence to move the needle very far in the other direction. None of us are perfectly unbiased.
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Re: Corrine Brown (D) to plead guilty before 2nd trial

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Doctor Steuss wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 3:56 pm
If she's guilty, she should have spared us all the expense of a first trial. That being said:

I can’t help but think/wonder how many times jurors have likely said “I have a gut feeling that they are guilty/innocent” without it so much as getting an eyebrow raise. Is ascribing the feeling to a divine power really all that different?
Had the juror expressed feeling a stupor of thought, others in the courtroom may have recruited that juror to run as a Trump candidate for some local race.
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Re: Corrine Brown (D) to plead guilty before 2nd trial

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As usual, the OP shoots himself in the dick because he hasn’t done even a cursory review of the facts. From Bloomberg:
The case has drawn the attention of eight Republican attorneys general, the Christian rights group American Center for Law and Justice, and a Stanford professor who has written on evangelicals, who have all filed briefs seeking to overturn Brown’s conviction.
So, it was his own people who got the Democrat out of hot water because they want to ensure larping plays a role in jury trials.

-_-

damned Xanax with the self-own. Again.

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Re: Corrine Brown (D) to plead guilty before 2nd trial

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ajax18 wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 3:55 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 3:12 pm
Ajax, what’s your understanding of “intersectional” and why do you claim its part of a hierarchy?
It's from Ben Shapiro's podcast. I think he means how many ways in which you're a minority and therefore the victim of prejudice and discrimination. So race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. So being black would you put you up their on the hierarchy, but being a black woman would raise you even higher, and to get even more privilege or special treatment because of the history of the country and past discrimination, being homosexual would elevate you even higher still.

I think the OJ Simpson case was interesting in determining which minority status is higher on the intersectional hierarchy of legal and political power. On the one hand Nichole Brown Simpson was female and usually females are favored by the court, especially in domestic and family law cases. But being female was no match for OJ Simpson being black and ultimately that card proved to be far more powerful and higher up the intersectional hierarchy totem pole than the gender card.
I'll be perfectly honest here, Ajax. When you first posted "intersectional hierarchy," my first reaction was hysterical laughter -- not at you, but at the absolute absurdity of the term itself. Unless you actually spent time reading about intersectionality the way it is actually used in discussions among people on the left, you could not understand how absurd the term is. That you got it from Shapiro makes 100% sense. I'll bet it was coined by him or one of his fellow hucksters who make bank pissing you off by lying about what folks on the left actually believe.

Have you ever read something Kevin says or some material he posts and thought "That's complete BS! That's a lie. That's not what conservatives believe at all!"

Well, that's Ben Shapiro. Only orders of magnitude beyond Kevin and he gets paid big bucks for doing it. Ben Shapiro makes his money lying to you about the left.

Now, before you get to the whatabout response: yes, absolutely. In elections they have a very polite term for this: "defining" your opponent. In this context, "defining" means creating a straw man." And I doubt that you could find an election in where a candidate's campaign never creates a straw man of the opponent.

So, if you want to be an educated citizen voter, you can't rely on what a candidate says. You've got to check what the candidate actually says and does.

That's what Ben Shapiro does, only his straw man is so bad it barely resembles anything in reality.

So, people aren't intersectional. Intersectionality is a critical part of understand "privilege" -- not the cartoon version Ben Shapiro and his comrades have taught you -- but the way the term is used by the people who use it as an aid to understanding the world. "Privilege" simply refers to the fact that different groups of people (and groups can be based on anything people have in common) experience the world in different ways. And because of that, members of one group can be simply blind to the existence of problems encountered by the others). Here's an easy example. When I go out on a walk, I never have to give a second's thought to crossing the street at an intersection. I just look both ways (or wait for the light to change), look for cars, and cross. I don't have to even think about what I'm doing.

But if I'm in a wheelchair, the experience of crossing the street is very different -- the most critical issue being curb cuts. Someone using a wheelchair to get around has to contend with all kinds of problems and obstacles that I never have to spend one second thinking about. Our experience of traveling outside on city streets is very different. And, unless someone called it to my attention, I would never see that the problem even exists.

That's privilege -- not having to think about or cope with problems that people in different groups have to think about or deal with. That's it.

Now, people don't just belong to a single group. I may belong to dozens of different groups, each of which may have or lack some kind of privilege vis a vis another group. That's intersectionality. A race-based privilege doesn't mean that privilege affects all black people the same way. Or all white people. Or all native people. A white person born in poverty can still be privileged in racial terms, but non-privileged in socio economic terms. In fact, when conservative misuse the concept of privilege, the thing they are often overlooking is intersectionality.

So, there is no intersectional hierarchy of people. Everybody belongs to different groups that potentially involve privilege (or lack of). People are considered "better" or "worse" because they belong to more groups or certain groups. That's the cartoon part. Diversity in government or in business has its own advantages. But that doesn't make a black person "superior" to a white person, a "black woman" superior to a "black man" or a "gay black woman" superior to a "straight black woman." The advantage of diversity, especially in a government, is have a broader range of experience brought to the table and having a government that is more representative of the citizenry. But that has noting to do with one person being "better" than another.

That's the lie that Ben Shapiro et al is telling you. There is no intersectional hierarchy.

The left does not believe that black politicians are less likely to be corrupt than white politicians, that women politicians are less like to be corrupt than men politicians, or that gay politicians are more corrupt than straight politicians. So, as a person on the left, there is nothing more important about Ms. Brown's corruption than that of any other politician. But by lying about Ms. Brown about being at the top of an "intersectional hierarchy," here's what Ben Shapiro is doing: he's claiming that it's somehow worse when a black person is corrupt than when a white person is corrupt, and that it's worse when a woman is corrupt than when a man is corrupt, and that worst of all is **gasp** when a BLACK WOMAN is corrupt.

And that's racist as hell.
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Re: Corrine Brown (D) to plead guilty before 2nd trial

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ajax18 wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 4:41 pm
I can’t help but think/wonder how many times jurors have likely said “I have a gut feeling that they are guilty/innocent” without it so much as getting an eyebrow raise.
I think a gut feeling is similar and I can't see how you could disqualify a juror for admitting he comes in with certain biases. As Res said the difference would be if someone were to say, "My gut has spoken and there is no evidence you can show me that would make me change my mind." And yet the fact is that most of us don't change our minds or our biases based on evidence. If we do it takes an enormous amount of time and evidence to move the needle very far in the other direction. None of us are perfectly unbiased.
The whole part about changing your mind differs, I think, depending on the circumstances. I've got one experience as juror, and watched several people, including myself, change my mind about certain conclusions through the process. The jurors I served with took their job very seriously and, I think, did a wonderful job of putting aside biases as much as a person can and focussing on the actual evidence. I think that's a whole different issue than me trying to change your mind on a political issue or the other way around.

The parties to the case get to address the issue of general biases in their peremptory challenges: each side gets to strike a number of jurors from the panel for, generally, any reason they want. What the judge is looking for is bias that will result in the juror not following the jury instructions, which include what the law says. Out here in the west, posse comitatus and similar groups believe the jury can do anything it wants, including ignoring the law. The judge will dismiss them. Someone who says "all cops lie. I would never believe the testimony of a cop" will be questioned in more detail by the judge and, if the judge is convinced that the bias will prevent the juror from even consider law enforcement testimony, that juror will like be dismissed.

So, for the judge, the issue is not just bias, but bias that will prevent the juror from following the jury instructions.
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Re: Corrine Brown (D) to plead guilty before 2nd trial

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Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 5:31 pm
As usual, the opening post shoots himself in the dick because he hasn’t done even a cursory review of the facts. From Bloomberg:
The case has drawn the attention of eight Republican attorneys general, the Christian rights group American Center for Law and Justice, and a Stanford professor who has written on evangelicals, who have all filed briefs seeking to overturn Brown’s conviction.
So, it was his own people who got the Democrat out of hot water because they want to ensure larping plays a role in jury trials.

-_-

damned Xanax with the self-own. Again.

- Doc
She didn't get out of hot water. She spent two and a half years in jail and was fined. I read what she was originally convicted of and what she admitted to doing in her plea bargain. in my opinion, she's lucky she didn't spend the rest of her life in jail.

And I don't think the conservatives and christian groups that filed amicus briefs were on her side. All she would get out of the ruling is a new trial on charges a jury had found her guilty on the first time. For them, the issue was religious based discrimination in jury selection. I doubt that any of them wanted her to hand her a get out of jail free card.
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Re: Corrine Brown (D) to plead guilty before 2nd trial

Post by Res Ipsa »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 5:44 pm
ajax18 wrote:
Thu May 19, 2022 4:41 pm


I think a gut feeling is similar and I can't see how you could disqualify a juror for admitting he comes in with certain biases. As Res said the difference would be if someone were to say, "My gut has spoken and there is no evidence you can show me that would make me change my mind." And yet the fact is that most of us don't change our minds or our biases based on evidence. If we do it takes an enormous amount of time and evidence to move the needle very far in the other direction. None of us are perfectly unbiased.
The whole part about changing your mind differs, I think, depending on the circumstances. I've got one experience as juror, and watched several people, including myself, change my mind about certain conclusions through the process. The jurors I served with took their job very seriously and, I think, did a wonderful job of putting aside biases as much as a person can and focussing on the actual evidence. I think that's a whole different issue than me trying to change your mind on a political issue or the other way around.

The parties to the case get to address the issue of general biases in their peremptory challenges: each side gets to strike a number of jurors from the panel for, generally, any reason they want. What the judge is looking for is bias that will result in the juror not following the jury instructions, which include what the law says. Out here in the west, posse comitatus and similar groups believe the jury can do anything it wants, including ignoring the law. The judge will dismiss them. Someone who says "all cops lie. I would never believe the testimony of a cop" will be questioned in more detail by the judge and, if the judge is convinced that the bias will prevent the juror from even consider law enforcement testimony, that juror will like be dismissed.

So, for the judge, the issue is not just bias, but bias that will prevent the juror from following the jury instructions.
ETA: your OJ Simpson analysis is complete BS, and I think you know that.
he/him
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