do I understand the definition of a man?

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
User avatar
Binger
God
Posts: 2986
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:34 am

Re: do I understand the definition of a man?

Post by Binger »

Morley wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 1:30 pm
Binger.

From your silence, I'm going to conclude that you've reconsidered your stance on this subject.

All is well.
Happy to discuss this in direct messages. The queue delay is too long to do it in Paradise. This place is fine to drop a not from time to time, but not for anything thoughtful or invested conversations. The other forums are de-listed too so it is probably best to just DM me if the topic interests you at all.
User avatar
Binger
God
Posts: 2986
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:34 am

Re: do I understand the definition of a man?

Post by Binger »

A short version of what I explained in a recent message is this.

I asked if the definition of "man" has changed, I have not argued that it has changed. My point was that we have a lengthy discussion going on about the definition of women, including the evolution of constructs, but that the same conversation about men is not really happening at the same degrading, cancelling, stereotyping and dismissive level that is happening to and about women.

Here is a sample, from yesterday, of this topic in a mainstream publisher. Again, this is about "women."

https://nypost.com/2022/06/12/what-is-a ... extremism/
honorentheos
God
Posts: 1865
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:15 am

Re: do I understand the definition of a man?

Post by honorentheos »

There is quite a bit of dialog about what it means to be a man in modern society that I'd argue exposes why "man" and "woman" are cultural constructs associated with but not identical to "male" and "female". What your grandfather considered it to mean to be a man is not shared by most of gen z, where the coupling of men and women or whatever other coupling is less binary in terms of roles, behaviour, and expectations.

The resistance to trans identity is a narrow conversation that misses major aspects of this precisely because many assume man = innately male traits, baked into the biology of having a penis. And woman = innately female traits baked into the biology of having a vagina that fail to realize just how much of our historic definitions for both aren't innate but instead assigned by culture. And that culture is changing. As it always has and always will.
User avatar
Morley
First Presidency
Posts: 819
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:17 pm
Location: detail from Jan van Eyck's Arnolfini Portrait (1434)

Re: do I understand the definition of a man?

Post by Morley »

Binger wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 2:50 pm

Happy to discuss this in direct messages. The queue delay is too long to do it in Paradise. This place is fine to drop a not from time to time, but not for anything thoughtful or invested conversations. The other forums are de-listed too so it is probably best to just DM me if the topic interests you at all.
I’m not interested in a direct message discussion. I can and do do that with my brother-in-law.

I’m willing to wait out the queue for your response.

honorentheos wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:21 pm
There is quite a bit of dialog about what it means to be a man in modern society that I'd argue exposes why "man" and "woman" are cultural constructs associated with but not identical to "male" and "female". What your grandfather considered it to mean to be a man is not shared by most of gen z, where the coupling of men and women or whatever other coupling is less binary in terms of roles, behaviour, and expectations.

The resistance to trans identity is a narrow conversation that misses major aspects of this precisely because many assume man = innately male traits, baked into the biology of having a penis. And woman = innately female traits baked into the biology of having a vagina that fail to realize just how much of our historic definitions for both aren't innate but instead assigned by culture. And that culture is changing. As it always has and always will.
I think this says it pretty well.
User avatar
Morley
First Presidency
Posts: 819
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:17 pm
Location: detail from Jan van Eyck's Arnolfini Portrait (1434)

Re: do I understand the definition of a man?

Post by Morley »

Binger wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 3:39 pm
A short version of what I explained in a recent message is this.

I asked if the definition of "man" has changed, I have not argued that it has changed. My point was that we have a lengthy discussion going on about the definition of women, including the evolution of constructs, but that the same conversation about men is not really happening at the same degrading, cancelling, stereotyping and dismissive level that is happening to and about women.

Here is a sample, from yesterday, of this topic in a mainstream publisher. Again, this is about "women."

https://nypost.com/2022/06/12/what-is-a ... extremism/
I think the "evolution of constructs" is happening about both men and women.

Maybe you’ll point out the parts about women that you find degrading, cancelling, stereotyping and dismissive? So that I know specifically what I’m responding to.
User avatar
Binger
God
Posts: 2986
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:34 am

Re: do I understand the definition of a man?

Post by Binger »

Morley wrote:
Thu May 26, 2022 2:39 am

Personally, I'm not sure the definition of the word "man" has changed that much in the past 5, 50, or 500 years. Please make your case that it has.
There was that...
Morley wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:42 pm
honorentheos wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 5:21 pm
And woman = innately female traits baked into the biology of having a vagina that fail to realize just how much of our historic definitions for both aren't innate but instead assigned by culture. And that culture is changing. As it always has and always will.
I think this says it pretty well.
And that.

On the one hand, we think it has changed and on the other hand, we believing it is always changing.

You asked what was offensive? It doesn't matter even a little bit what I think is offensive or cancelling or whatever. I am just a dude that is not even welcome to post freely on this forum, for example. Clearly. What I think is wrong and what I say is offensive. Obviously.

But take this image for example. You probably think it is fine. I am sure the author thinks it is fine. But, you can be damn certain that not every woman who sees this is fine. And there are probably many women that find it demeaning. So, I leave it only as an example. Mileage my vary.

Image

The queue is not a probably for you. It is a problem when I can't see the posts and they arrive out of sequence if they arrive at all.
User avatar
Morley
First Presidency
Posts: 819
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 6:17 pm
Location: detail from Jan van Eyck's Arnolfini Portrait (1434)

Re: do I understand the definition of a man?

Post by Morley »

Binger wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:28 pm
Morley wrote:
Thu May 26, 2022 2:39 am

Personally, I'm not sure the definition of the word "man" has changed that much in the past 5, 50, or 500 years. Please make your case that it has.
There was that...
Morley wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 10:42 pm

I think this says it pretty well.
And that.

On the one hand, we think it has changed and on the other hand, we believing it is always changing.
Ha! You're absolutely right. I knew you would catch that. I'll confess to two motivations for my opposing responses.

1) I was trying to draw you into the substantive, public discussion that I know you're capable of.

2) Honor made the case articulately and concisely. I had no choice but to capitulate.

In looking at human behavior, I'm a big proponent of recognizing the power of culture over biology. As a species, we've come up with religion, money, and birthday parties, for God's sake. The concepts of what constitutes a man or a woman is, of course, going vary by time, place, ethnicity, and era. It'll even change for us individually according to the day, situation, or who we're talking to. Just look at the what is a woman discussion, where Markk argues multiple definitions in the same paragraph.

Binger wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:28 pm
You asked what was offensive? It doesn't matter even a little bit what I think is offensive or cancelling or whatever. I am just a dude that is not even welcome to post freely on this forum, for example. Clearly. What I think is wrong and what I say is offensive. Obviously.

But take this image for example. You probably think it is fine. I am sure the author thinks it is fine. But, you can be damn certain that not every woman who sees this is fine. And there are probably many women that find it demeaning. So, I leave it only as an example. Mileage my vary.

Image
Of course, it matters what you personally do or don't find offensive. And naturally, some women will feel offended when they think they are being redefined as people rather than women.

I think your point is that whenever society shifts definitions, it going to feel disconcerting to some people. And that, in the motivation to include, we forget that others are going to feel that they are being recategorized and pushed aside. I agree.

I don't think that this is unique to the modern world. As honor notes, it's something that has always happened. It's something that will continue to happen as language and cultures change. The problem with modernity is with the rapid pace that these changes are taking place. We sometimes feel like they are being foisted upon us by outside forces. Maybe this isn't acknowledged often enough.

Binger wrote:
Mon Jun 13, 2022 11:28 pm
The queue is not a probably for you. It is a problem when I can't see the posts and they arrive out of sequence if they arrive at all.
No, it's not a problem for me. And realize it's difficult for you. Thanks for engaging, anyway.
User avatar
canpakes
God
Posts: 4543
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:25 am

Re: do I understand the definition of a man?

Post by canpakes »

Morley wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:17 pm
Of course, it matters what you personally do or don't find offensive. And naturally, some women will feel offended when they think they are being redefined as people rather than women.

Some might. But, the flip side of that is that not all people who can use a tampon are necessarily going to call themselves women, especially if they experience menarche at 12 years of age. Although, they’re still ‘a person who menstruates’, even as they might not want to be co-opted at such an early age for someone else’s cultural rage du jour.
User avatar
Binger
God
Posts: 2986
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:34 am

Re: do I understand the definition of a man?

Post by Binger »

canpakes wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:45 pm
Morley wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:17 pm
Of course, it matters what you personally do or don't find offensive. And naturally, some women will feel offended when they think they are being redefined as people rather than women.

Some might. But, the flip side of that is that not all people who can use a tampon are necessarily going to call themselves women, especially if they experience menarche at 12 years of age. Although, they’re still ‘a person who menstruates’, even as they might not want to be co-opted at such an early age for someone else’s cultural rage du jour.
This is not a flip side to Morley's point. Not even close.

The construct is telling women who they are, what they are, how they are, and who else is in their construct. If you think this shaming and defining and pointing and redefining with a process of deciding who is included and excluded is morally superior to the respect that Rulon and Warren Jeffs had for women, you are out of your mind. It may not be as sickening, but it is the same damn thing.

Some women were offended by the Jeffs cult when they were redefined and reassigned. Some women are offended when they are reclassified as a person who menstruates. The point of it all is that someone is deciding who and what a woman is, and the woman is forced to just take it. That is all good and all fine. But, be careful what you wish for. Some women will just tell you to pound sand, dude.
User avatar
canpakes
God
Posts: 4543
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:25 am

Re: do I understand the definition of a man?

Post by canpakes »

Binger wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 4:44 pm
canpakes wrote:
Tue Jun 14, 2022 1:45 pm



Some might. But, the flip side of that is that not all people who can use a tampon are necessarily going to call themselves women, especially if they experience menarche at 12 years of age. Although, they’re still ‘a person who menstruates’, even as they might not want to be co-opted at such an early age for someone else’s cultural rage du jour.
This is not a flip side to Morley's point. Not even close.

The construct is telling women who they are, what they are, how they are, and who else is in their construct. If you think this shaming and defining and pointing and redefining with a process of deciding who is included and excluded is morally superior to the respect that Rulon and Warren Jeffs had for women, you are out of your mind. It may not be as sickening, but it is the same damn thing.

Some women were offended by the Jeffs cult when they were redefined and reassigned. Some women are offended when they are reclassified as a person who menstruates. The point of it all is that someone is deciding who and what a woman is, and the woman is forced to just take it. That is all good and all fine. But, be careful what you wish for. Some women will just tell you to pound sand, dude.

None of that is happening in that tweet/image, but what you’re describing above is what you’re doing while complaining about it.
Post Reply