The 2nd Amendment in the 21st Century

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Doctor Steuss
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Re: The 2nd Amendment in the 21st Century

Post by Doctor Steuss »

The current conversation reminded me of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDvugsSjI6s
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: The 2nd Amendment in the 21st Century

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Dr. Shades,

These were and are your arguments for an armed civilian population:
Dr. Shades wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:00 pm
Mass shooters seem to scare a lot of people. Imagine how many mass shooters would appear when and where invading soldiers congregated. Do you think a potential invading force wouldn't be aware of that?

I didn't think the deterrent effect of an armed populace required any explanation.

All gun-owning civilians behind the front lines will become snipers.
I think Chap, Honor, Manetho and PG make rational observations vis a vis a military that can dominate the air, land, sea, and political equation to the point of defeating us and occupying our territories. I’ll chip in a few more.

Logistics - say you have 5,000 rounds of ammunition and you volunteered to be part of a militia. Your supply of ammunition will be divvied up and expended relatively quickly, especially if you’re engaging in formalized warfare. So any efforts you expend as a civilian, fighting with other civilians within this context will be performative at best, and an absolute crap show at worst <- the latter is most likely the outcome.

Guerrilla warfare - say you and the local population decide to wage a guerrilla style campaign to bleed the occupying forces. You’re still at square one because of the lack of logistics, the lack of control over your air, land, sea, and intelligence domains. The occupying forces can just hang out in the sky and either pick you off from above, or coordinate with ground forces to kill you through direct and indirect action. Additionally, any action you take will most likely result in severe repercussions for the civilian population. There’d be mass executions and depopulation by any force that has the ability to control the battle space.

Partisan infighting- you will have significant political divisions within the population. You’ll have collaborators. You’ll have mass purges. You’ll fight other Americans who have their own agenda. Your resources will be gone - you may have guns but you won’t have ammunition depots, food banks, supply lines, political harmony, and layered competency.

Total war - any foreign governments with the ability to invade our country will either levy total war so our country’s infrastructure is destroyed, population centers will be leveled, mass refugees will flood north and south, and mass death is laid on the land on an unimaginable scale, or they’ll be invited to set up bases that are heavily guarded and will use political means to achieve their aims through a compliant puppet government, which will have the resources to simply snatch you away in the middle of the night, wherever you are. Sure, you can set up a resistance network, but it’ll be degraded and destroyed over time. Your AR-15 is as useless as tits on a chicken at this point.

IF, and this is the big IF, these foreign governments have the political will and the means to lay siege on our country and conduct Total War, your guns and your bravado will simply be worthless. You may “die on your feet”, but you will die and any sort of long-term political change you can effect will vanish along with your gun.

- Doc
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Re: The 2nd Amendment in the 21st Century

Post by Physics Guy »

A modern military superpower can thoroughly lay waste the land with artillery from well over the horizon. Airstrikes, of course, have even longer range, and small arms are of negligible effectiveness against supersonic aircraft. They fly too high and too fast for anyone to hit them. Soldiers do train to try to use .50 caliber machine guns in anti-aircraft mode, but it's pretty hopeless: the tactic is literally just to fire up and hope the plane flies into the stream of bullets.

The idea that civilians with small arms could defend their land against a force that has defeated a superpower is ridiculous. Just think about it a bit.
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Re: The 2nd Amendment in the 21st Century

Post by Chap »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:35 pm
Dr. Shades,

[...]

Sure, you can set up a resistance network, but it’ll be degraded and destroyed over time. Your AR-15 is as useless as tits on a chicken at this point.

IF, and this is the big IF, these foreign governments have the political will and the means to lay siege on our country and conduct Total War, your guns and your bravado will simply be worthless. You may “die on your feet”, but you will die and any sort of long-term political change you can effect will vanish along with your gun.

- Doc

Thanks DrC. Your voice on such matters carries weight.
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Dr. Shades
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Re: The 2nd Amendment in the 21st Century

Post by Dr. Shades »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Wed Jun 29, 2022 4:35 pm
Dr. Shades,

These were and are your arguments for an armed civilian population:
Dr. Shades wrote:
Sun Jun 26, 2022 1:00 pm
Mass shooters seem to scare a lot of people. Imagine how many mass shooters would appear when and where invading soldiers congregated. Do you think a potential invading force wouldn't be aware of that?

I didn't think the deterrent effect of an armed populace required any explanation.

All gun-owning civilians behind the front lines will become snipers.
I think Chap, Honor, Manetho and PG make rational observations vis a vis a military that can dominate the air, land, sea, and political equation to the point of defeating us and occupying our territories. I’ll chip in a few more.

Logistics - say you have 5,000 rounds of ammunition and you volunteered to be part of a militia. Your supply of ammunition will be divvied up and expended relatively quickly, especially if you’re engaging in formalized warfare. So any efforts you expend as a civilian, fighting with other civilians within this context will be performative at best, and an absolute crap show at worst <- the latter is most likely the outcome.

Guerrilla warfare - say you and the local population decide to wage a guerrilla style campaign to bleed the occupying forces. You’re still at square one because of the lack of logistics, the lack of control over your air, land, sea, and intelligence domains. The occupying forces can just hang out in the sky and either pick you off from above, or coordinate with ground forces to kill you through direct and indirect action. Additionally, any action you take will most likely result in severe repercussions for the civilian population. There’d be mass executions and depopulation by any force that has the ability to control the battle space.

Partisan infighting- you will have significant political divisions within the population. You’ll have collaborators. You’ll have mass purges. You’ll fight other Americans who have their own agenda. Your resources will be gone - you may have guns but you won’t have ammunition depots, food banks, supply lines, political harmony, and layered competency.

Total war - any foreign governments with the ability to invade our country will either levy total war so our country’s infrastructure is destroyed, population centers will be leveled, mass refugees will flood north and south, and mass death is laid on the land on an unimaginable scale, or they’ll be invited to set up bases that are heavily guarded and will use political means to achieve their aims through a compliant puppet government, which will have the resources to simply snatch you away in the middle of the night, wherever you are. Sure, you can set up a resistance network, but it’ll be degraded and destroyed over time. Your AR-15 is as useless as tits on a chicken at this point.

IF, and this is the big IF, these foreign governments have the political will and the means to lay siege on our country and conduct Total War, your guns and your bravado will simply be worthless. You may “die on your feet”, but you will die and any sort of long-term political change you can effect will vanish along with your gun.

- Doc
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Re: The 2nd Amendment in the 21st Century

Post by Moksha »

What about the idea that contained in every ardent gun advocate is a mass shooter who will be unleashed if they feel threatened?
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Re: The 2nd Amendment in the 21st Century

Post by Gunnar »

NRA Posts Appallingly Insensitive July Fourth Greeting After Mass Shooting.
Lake County Sgt. Christopher Covelli speaks at the scene of the Fourth of July parade shooting in Highland Park, Illinois, where a gunman killed at least six people and injured dozens more. (Photo: YOUNGRAE KIM via Getty Images)
As police in Illinois hunted America’s latest mass shooter on Monday, the National Rifle Association left up a tweet crediting “armed citizens” for Independence Day.

“The only reason you’re celebrating Independence Day is because citizens were armed,” said the tweet, posted early in the day and still up Monday evening.

In Highland Park, Illinois, at least six people will never again celebrate July Fourth because they were killed by a lone “armed citizen,” who, according to police, fired from a rooftop into a Fourth of July parade. Dozens of others were injured.

The NRA tweet remained up while residents of the town were sheltering in place during the manhunt for the shooter.
A tweet by another lobbying group, the Gun Owners of America, was possibly even more tasteless.

“This long weekend brought to you by armed citizens,” gushed the message. The organization either wasn’t aware that other citizens’ holiday weekends had been permanently terminated — or didn’t care.
It is hard to imagine more appallingly stupid and insensitive messages than that after yet another senseless mass shooting! :evil: :twisted:
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Re: The 2nd Amendment in the 21st Century

Post by Gunnar »

Is anyone surprised that the Illinois parade shooter is yet another hard right, MAGA fanatic Trump supporter and Q'Anon conspiracy idiot? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ojl_LI4 ... eQ&index=5
Nothing good or worthwhile can come from that kind of mindset! His father has the same deadly, dangerous mindset.
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Re: The 2nd Amendment in the 21st Century

Post by Gunnar »

Repub Says She’ll SHOOT Her GRANDKIDS For Gun Rights.
Evangelical Christian leader Peggy Nienaber was caught on a hot mic outside of the Supreme Court admitting that she and her colleagues pray with sitting Supreme Court justices. Senator Marco Rubio’s “pro-life” parental leave benefits program would see a parents’ estate pay for unused benefits. Republican Rep. Debbie Lesko said that she would shoot her grandchildren if it means that she can still have the right to protect the grandchildren that she just wanted to shoot. A report released by the Texas Department of Public Safety details the gross incompetence of the Uvalde Police Department’s response to the mass shooting at Robb Elementary School. UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson has resigned following mass resignations from cabinet members and an endless litany of scandals.
Do any of you fail to see how insane this? The Republicans have lost their minds! No wonder they oppose legislation to prevent the sale of assault rifles to people who are mentally ill! They know they can be arguably accused of being mentally ill themselves!
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Doctor Steuss
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Re: The 2nd Amendment in the 21st Century

Post by Doctor Steuss »

It was a gaffe (although a brutal one). She has used her grandchildren as a gun fetish talking point prop before, and refers to shooting someone else to protect them.
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