RvW Overturned - Abortions Now Illegal

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Vēritās
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Re: RvW Overturned - Abortions Now Illegal

Post by Vēritās »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:19 pm
Speaking as a member of the left, I think this is the kind of arrogant thinking that got us where we are today.
Well, that's a trendy meme, but I think it is BS. I know why we're here today. We're here today because in 2016 two decades of FOX News demonization of Hillary Clinton paid off. The Comey letter sealed the deal for them and gave the GOP a razor thin win. Hillary didn't lose because of "arrogant thinking."
Do you know how many times I argued with fellow lefties in 2016 who justified not voting or voting third parties by saying similar things -- like Trump being elected would be the best thing ever for the left because it would show the country how bad the right is?
I never argued this, but you may very well have been correct. Give it time and find out. And I'm sure I'm right about the results of the GOP ever getting rid of Social Security. It would be political suicide. Most of them understand this too, which is why Trump and his Republicans never bothered to repeal Obamacare or replace it. They understood the political ramifications of throwing millions of people off of their health insurance plans.
Telling people that they're voting against their interest because they're stupid is not how you win elections.
Not that I ever suggested this. :roll: What's wrong with you? You're going back to your quick-read-passive-aggressive responses again.

I'm just stating the obvious facts about the current situation and you're acting like I'm preaching on some campaign trail. I also think you're pretty friggin naïve if you think you're ever going to turn states blue by flipping Trumpers. That is just a waste of time. The blind ignorance and unbridled hatred that drives these folks isn't something you're going to change with any kind of "discussion." Just look at how unmoved ajax and subgenius were for all those years, no matter how bad Trump was or what evidence there was against their views.
It's how you piss people off and galvanize the opposition. You have to persuade.
No, you need to get more people who aren't voting to vote. There was maybe a time when persuasion was possible, but not with Trumpers. We're in a different age now where fiction is reality to these people. They don't want to know what's true, they only want to hear about how their winning the culture wars that have been manufactured for them. And the opposition has been galvanized already, which is why they're willing to let their team get away with cheating. They're willing to play hardball, the Democrats aren't. But that needs to change. Stop pussy footing on the issues and damned tell the hard cold truth like it is. You think Trump came to power by "persuading" Democrats to vote Republican?? No, he rallied the base, which is in large part, ignorant white racists and they came out and supported him by the millions. Democrats need to focus on those who are likely to vote Democrat and get them hyped up the same way Trump did by using racism to rile up the racists. Who? Women. Why? Because what better reason to get riled up than to try winning your freedoms back? The best thing that could happen for the Dems is if the Supreme Court reverses gay rights and interracial marriage. Now you're talking an entirely different set of people who will be energized to vote, or should be.
You have to convince them that what Ds are going to do is better than what Rs are going to do
Honestly, has that ever worked for you? You can spend hours every day pounding your head against a brick wall with 100 Trumpers and you might flip 2 or 3 if you're really, really good. Meanwhile I can help register 100 random first time voters, regardless of their political views, and that will benefit the Left much more.
To even get started on what you're proposing, you've got to convince the voters to give the Ds two more seats than they have today. Telling them they're stupid isn't going to cut it.
Again, you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. If we put a Stacey Abrams like effort into states where Republicans have vulnerable Senate seats, we could get this done easier than you think. If Georgia can be turned Blue for crying out loud, so can Florida.
And by the way, a man telling women what their bests interests are is probably the worst possible political strategy ever.
Women know now how to vote in their best interests. The GOP just showed them better than any Democrat ever could what's not in their best interest. Their bodies are now properties of the state. They took for granted that Roe was secure. Now they're learning the hard way. Don't think for a second that only Democrat women are getting abortions. This the Supreme Court decision is more likely to flip female Trump voters than any amount of town hall wishful thinking. How could it not?
If demographics are the destiny you think they are, no radical changes are needed. Rescue is just around the corner...
I predicted a few decades at least. Not sure that's "around the corner." I also predict the Democrat party will be gone or turned into something different by then.

And Trump didn't make Hispanic gains in every state, he just made a really huge gain in Florida where the Cuban population came out big time for him. They've typically been Republican because they believe the Right Wing BS about how Democrats are communists like Castro. Do you think Trump is gaining Hispanic voters everywhere because they truly believe he loves them?
"I am not an American ... In my view premarital sex should be illegal ...(there are) mentally challenged people with special needs like myself- Ajax18
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Re: RvW Overturned - Abortions Now Illegal

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Ok, left wing Ajax. Maybe you’ll catch on to the definition of insanity. Hope springs eternal,
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Re: RvW Overturned - Abortions Now Illegal

Post by Vēritās »

To the point about Hispanics moving to the right, I think most of that is based on the huge gains in South Florida in the past election. Unlike the rest of the country, the Latino population in Florida is overwhelmingly Puerto Rican or Cuban. And as a former resident of five years in Orlando, one thing I learned from observation is that Mexicans were absolutely hated by both groups.
orlando.jpg
orlando.jpg (79.67 KiB) Viewed 230 times
For years the Right has been courting the Cuban population of South Florida. I remembered when Rush Limbaugh became a darling of the Cuban community when he said Cubans Work Hard, Unlike Mexicans. Of course, all Limbaugh really cared about was their political leanings.

Before getting married I dated a Puerto Rican who would get infuriated like you wouldn't believe, if anyone asked her if she was from Mexico. Mexicans were considered almost like second class people to these folks. So it really isn't surprising to me that an overtly anti-Mexican President like Trump could make huge gains in a state like Florida. Is it something Democrats could address better? Not sure.

Latinos can be racist too, my community proves that
"I am not an American ... In my view premarital sex should be illegal ...(there are) mentally challenged people with special needs like myself- Ajax18
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Re: RvW Overturned - Abortions Now Illegal

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Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:22 am
Ok, left wing Ajax. Maybe you’ll catch on to the definition of insanity. Hope springs eternal,
Now you're just being mean. Stop playing the man.
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Re: RvW Overturned - Abortions Now Illegal

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Physics Guy wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:56 am
The founders of America democracy were without doubt gifted political thinkers, but they were not superhumanly gifted enough to craft a system which would stay good for over 200 years of drastic change. They made Democracy 1.0, and they made it too hard to upgrade.

I can't think of any nation that has copied the American constitution. Far from being an ideal system, it has serious flaws.

I hope the United States can somehow overcome them. I think that the United States of America has done a lot more good than harm in the world; humanity has been very lucky in this era to have the USA as its superpower. American power has done some horrible things, but has also done some really excellent things, and it could all have been a lot worse.

The whole MAGA movement is so misguided. America has so many enormous assets that the only thing that can stop it from being great is an anxious pride that makes it afraid to recognise its flaws and fix them. Real confidence embraces humility. The United States should have that kind of confidence. It's sad to see that it doesn't, today.
Lots of democracies are struggling right now. Israel is having its fourth election in, what, four years? Some, including the US are seriously flirting with autocracy. in my opinion, democracy is fragile. There has to be a balance between the the will of the majority and the rights of the minority. In the US, the shared norms that allow a democracy to function have been nearly shredded and the partisans on both sides are in a rush to shred what’s left before the other side does it. We’re Thelma and Louise, and we’ve got the pedal to the metal.

Meanwhile, here in the West, we’ve dicked around about water, even though we’ve known for decades that the Colorado River was over allocated and that climate change was going to make that situation even worse, so lots of folks are dangerously close to having no electricity and/or water when they turn the tap on. People are already stressed to the point of near insanity, and it only gets worse from here.

Either we put some real meaning into the notion of the common good or we lose civilization as we’ve known it.

I’m not optimistic.
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Re: RvW Overturned - Abortions Now Illegal

Post by Vēritās »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:00 am
Physics Guy wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:56 am
The founders of America democracy were without doubt gifted political thinkers, but they were not superhumanly gifted enough to craft a system which would stay good for over 200 years of drastic change. They made Democracy 1.0, and they made it too hard to upgrade.

I can't think of any nation that has copied the American constitution. Far from being an ideal system, it has serious flaws.

I hope the United States can somehow overcome them. I think that the United States of America has done a lot more good than harm in the world; humanity has been very lucky in this era to have the USA as its superpower. American power has done some horrible things, but has also done some really excellent things, and it could all have been a lot worse.

The whole MAGA movement is so misguided. America has so many enormous assets that the only thing that can stop it from being great is an anxious pride that makes it afraid to recognise its flaws and fix them. Real confidence embraces humility. The United States should have that kind of confidence. It's sad to see that it doesn't, today.
Lots of democracies are struggling right now. Israel is having its fourth election in, what, four years? Some, including the US are seriously flirting with autocracy. in my opinion, democracy is fragile. There has to be a balance between the the will of the majority and the rights of the minority. In the US, the shared norms that allow a democracy to function have been nearly shredded and the partisans on both sides are in a rush to shred what’s left before the other side does it. We’re Thelma and Louise, and we’ve got the pedal to the metal.

Meanwhile, here in the West, we’ve dicked around about water, even though we’ve known for decades that the Colorado River was over allocated and that climate change was going to make that situation even worse, so lots of folks are dangerously close to having no electricity and/or water when they turn the tap on. People are already stressed to the point of near insanity, and it only gets worse from here.

Either we put some real meaning into the notion of the common good or we lose civilization as we’ve known it.

I’m not optimistic.

It is surprising how many people would prefer to live in an autocracy. In Brazil I was stunned how many folks were excited about Bolsonaro running for President. The guy was a former military general who was involved in the military dictatorship that lasted from 1964-1985. Their response was generally the same, "At least with a dictator things get done."

I'm wondering if this resonates with GOP types who thirst for a full on Trump autocracy.
"I am not an American ... In my view premarital sex should be illegal ...(there are) mentally challenged people with special needs like myself- Ajax18
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Re: RvW Overturned - Abortions Now Illegal

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Vēritās wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:51 am
Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:22 am
Ok, left wing Ajax. Maybe you’ll catch on to the definition of insanity. Hope springs eternal,
Now you're just being mean. Stop playing the man.
I don’t think I’m being mean. Your dismissal of folks who disagree with you politically as “human garbage” is the mirror image of Ajax’s hatred of his fellow humans. The two of you are emblematic of what is tearing this country to pieces. The road you two are on leads to Rwanda. Unless there are enough of us naïve folks left, we’re screwed.
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Re: RvW Overturned - Abortions Now Illegal

Post by Res Ipsa »

Vēritās wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:05 am
Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:00 am


Lots of democracies are struggling right now. Israel is having its fourth election in, what, four years? Some, including the US are seriously flirting with autocracy. in my opinion, democracy is fragile. There has to be a balance between the the will of the majority and the rights of the minority. In the US, the shared norms that allow a democracy to function have been nearly shredded and the partisans on both sides are in a rush to shred what’s left before the other side does it. We’re Thelma and Louise, and we’ve got the pedal to the metal.

Meanwhile, here in the West, we’ve dicked around about water, even though we’ve known for decades that the Colorado River was over allocated and that climate change was going to make that situation even worse, so lots of folks are dangerously close to having no electricity and/or water when they turn the tap on. People are already stressed to the point of near insanity, and it only gets worse from here.

Either we put some real meaning into the notion of the common good or we lose civilization as we’ve known it.

I’m not optimistic.

It is surprising how many people would prefer to live in an autocracy. In Brazil I was stunned how many folks were excited about Bolsonaro running for President. The guy was a former military general who was involved in the military dictatorship that lasted from 1964-1985. Their response was generally the same, "At least with a dictator things get done."

I'm wondering if this resonates with GOP types who thirst for a full on Trump autocracy.
I don’t think there’s any magic to it. It’s what people tend to do when they feel threatened.
he/him
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.

Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
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Re: RvW Overturned - Abortions Now Illegal

Post by Vēritās »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:08 am
Vēritās wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:51 am

Now you're just being mean. Stop playing the man.
I don’t think I’m being mean. Your dismissal of folks who disagree with you politically as “human garbage” is the mirror image of Ajax’s hatred of his fellow humans. The two of you are emblematic of what is tearing this country to pieces. The road you two are on leads to Rwanda. Unless there are enough of us naïve folks left, we’re screwed.
Now you're just being disingenuous. Human garbage? I've reserved that description for few people, typically those who show themselves to be racists to a spectacular degree. For you to just reduce it to "whoever disagrees" with me is just ridiculous.

Ajax hates people based on color first and political party second. All I have done in this thread is acknowledge that the simple fact that there are stupid people who continue to vote against their own interests, but I don't "hate" them for it, nor do I call them "human garbage" for merely "disagreeing." If you can't tell the difference then you're not really as smart as I always gave you credit for.

I should also add that I don't cry and moan when my guy loses nor do I blame whatever problems I have in my life on the party I voted against.

Now, can you play the ball? I think you might have more to offer on this subject if you can take a step back and relax.
Last edited by Vēritās on Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RvW Overturned - Abortions Now Illegal

Post by Res Ipsa »

Vēritās wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 2:51 am
To the point about Hispanics moving to the right, I think most of that is based on the huge gains in South Florida in the past election. Unlike the rest of the country, the Latino population in Florida is overwhelmingly Puerto Rican or Cuban. And as a former resident of five years in Orlando, one thing I learned from observation is that Mexicans were absolutely hated by both groups.

orlando.jpg

For years the Right has been courting the Cuban population of South Florida. I remembered when Rush Limbaugh became a darling of the Cuban community when he said Cubans Work Hard, Unlike Mexicans. Of course, all Limbaugh really cared about was their political leanings.

Before getting married I dated a Puerto Rican who would get infuriated like you wouldn't believe, if anyone asked her if she was from Mexico. Mexicans were considered almost like second class people to these folks. So it really isn't surprising to me that an overtly anti-Mexican President like Trump could make huge gains in a state like Florida. Is it something Democrats could address better? Not sure.

Latinos can be racist too, my community proves that
You can think that, but I don’t think it’s factual. The gains were along the Mexican border. https://www.politico.com/amp/news/magaz ... nos-437027
he/him
When I go to sea, don’t fear for me. Fear for the storm.

Jessica Best, Fear for the Storm. From The Strange Case of the Starship Iris.
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