RvW Overturned - Abortions Now Illegal

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Binger
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Re: RvW Overturned - Abortions Now Illegal

Post by Binger »

Manetho wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 5:48 am
Res Ipsa wrote:Meanwhile, here in the West, we’ve dicked around about water, even though we’ve known for decades that the Colorado River was over allocated and that climate change was going to make that situation even worse, so lots of folks are dangerously close to having no electricity and/or water when they turn the tap on. People are already stressed to the point of near insanity, and it only gets worse from here.

Either we put some real meaning into the notion of the common good or we lose civilization as we’ve known it.
I agree with that, but what evidence is there that conservative voters could ever be brought on board with adapting to climate change? What appeal can anyone make to them?
Consider looking at recent executive orders specifically related to the Colorado River and water for examples of what have been done by leaders of both sides, and then listen a bit to the people that picked those leaders. Also, if there are instructions and decisions from leaders other than Clinton/Bernie/Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez that are positive for the environmental issues, try not calling the voters who picked those leaders "Nazis".

Appeals? Start with common sense and not with Greta and Al. The amount of wind-sourced energy in Texas is an indication that your assumptions are probably whack.
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canpakes
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Re: RvW Overturned - Abortions Now Illegal

Post by canpakes »

Binger wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 12:38 pm
Appeals? Start with common sense and not with Greta and Al. The amount of wind-sourced energy in Texas is an indication that your assumptions are probably whack.

There’s a delicate balance to maintain. Remember that just a winter ago, natgas pipeline equipment froze up and the state experienced an energy emergency, yet there was a concerted effort by a good number of folks on the right-hand side of the fence to target those woes on ‘frozen wind turbines’, when the majority of issues stemmed from other energy sources.

https://www.texastribune.org/2021/02/16 ... rozen/amp/

There are plenty of Texans who seem reluctant to acknowledge wind energy’s importance within the state.
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Re: RvW Overturned - Abortions Now Illegal

Post by Vēritās »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Jul 01, 2022 4:08 am
Surprise! That’s exactly the point. You were just crowing about the nation becoming more racially diverse. Guess what — there is no necessary connection between brown skin and political views. Just like in Brazil.
Can't you understand that the South of Texas and the South Florida are anomalies? You're trying to use them to discount the fact that immigrants typically vote Democrat.
You don’t know how people who aren’t voters yet are going to vote. And people can and do change political ideologies and parties.
Sure, but how does that negate my point about diversification benefitting the Left? I'm not "taking it for granted," I'm not saying whether or not it is right or wrong, I'm just saying it is what it is. Hell, even Right Wing studies have demonstrated this to be a fact which is part of the reason why they hate increased immigration. Living in the South I can see that so much of the reason conservatives vote conservative has to do with the cultural bubble they've been living in all their lives where they've been told they have to vote Republican because it secures their guns, their religion and makes them more Christian and more patriotic, and that the democrats represent a threat to society. That kind of BS doesn't typically resonate with people coming in from other countries. You don't have to agree with it for it to be true.
Writing off the Hispanic votes that voted for Trump as “conservatives” is a losing strategy for the Dems
I'm not "writing them off," I'm merely acknowledging the facts according to the link you provided. More of them voted Republican in 2020 than they did in 2016 because they were already conservative on some of the main issues like guns and abortion. That simply isn't typical for most people coming into this country and it sure as hell isn't anything the Democrats can do about it. Not if guns and abortion are their two main priorities. You need to know where to pick your battles and understand when to cut your losses. I believe the article also said that particular section of Texas tend to have more US Born citizens who happened to be Hispanic which probably plays a part in their identity as "True American" or whatever.
You can dismiss the arrogance within the left as a meme and keep dehumanizing conservatives
I dismiss it because at this point is is obviously just something you say to make yourself feel superior. You already lied about the "human garbage" remark, and now you're bringing up "dehumanization"? WTF is wrong with you? I see you doing nothing more than taking full advantage of your authority as Mod to be every bit the hypocrite you can be. "Play the ball not the man" you recently preached to me, only to throw the ball out the damned window while misrepresenting what I've said over something I never would have guessed would cause to you freak out the way you have. And after months of complaining about how I've been too hard on poor ole ajax, and how I shouldn't remind anyone about anything he's done or said in the past otherwise it is just a "personal attack," here you are bringing up my past, and trying to piss me off by illicitly calling me a Leftist Nazi.

Now, we obviously have different perspectives here. I'm sorry if it isn't something you cannot discuss without personal attacks. But your preferred "strategy" hasn't been working for the Left, and it obviously hasn't. I've suggested it is time to take the gloves off and fight fire with fire and your rebuttal is to condescendingly call me a Leftist Nazi fulfilling Limbaugh prophecies, along with the, "Oh we cannot do that because they'll do the same thing when they're in power." Well guess what Sherlock? THEY'VE BEEN DOING IT FOR YEARS ALREADY. They stole Obama's the Supreme Court nominee by playing dirty politics, they elected an autocrat who tried the overthrow our democracy while they all turned a blind eye and made excuses for him, they confirmed a few unqualified idiot judges because the Federalist Society told them their religious views passed the smell test, they said they'd never confirm a judge in an election year and lied about that, they bitch about baby formula but refuse to sign legislation to help with that because rather than helping Americans they'd prefer there be something to blame on the Democrats, they effectively made women property of the state, they're about to go after marriage equality and gay rights because the 1950's were their glory days, and now Biden is making a deal with McConnell by confirming an anti-Abortion buddy of his from Kentucky and in return Mitch promises not to block any more of his appointees. Now do you think for a damned second Mitch is going to do that? No. But Democrats like you keep thinking defensively which is why the party is where its at right now. Do you think for a damned second Republicans would hesitate to block the filibuster to get what they wanted done? Hell no. They'd do it in a heartbeat without wondering, "Oh no, if we do this then the Dems will do the same when they're in power." The GOP is a cesspool as all get out right now. They don't care about playing by the rules or maintaining institutional norms, all they care about is getting whatever the can using whatever means necessary, and that is why this country is in serious decline as a democracy. Women will soon be dead in transit because they couldn't make it to an out of state abortion clinic in time. But hey, at least we played fairly and didn't break any rules, right?

With all your pretense about having a morally superior strategy, the fact is your strategy is effectively killing the Democrat party, and it wouldn't surprise me if they lose every upcoming election there is over the next two years because why would the people put their faith in them ever again after this catastrophic collapse of our Democratic walls? We thought we had control a year ago but what's been done? We let Roe get overturned under our watch! We don't even have the damned balls to indict the former President because Garland is too worried about appearing political. So in 2024 he'll just do it all over again because the Republicans have put in place puppets in various state legislators who ARE willing to overthrow elections. Biden won't support increasing the number of justices because, well, saving the lives of women isn't as important as "appearing centrist."

Yeah, the Democrats are up crap creek, but it isn't because of people like me, it is because of people like you who think you can reason your way through the opposition. I talk to Conservatives quite literally on a daily basis. Every time I go to one of the local bars or restaurants it is already taken for granted everyone is on the Right. Never once has any of them told me anything remotely resembling what you said. That the reason they don't vote Left is because the Left just calls them stupid.
but all you’re doing is reinforcing what Rush and his successors have been telling folks like Ajax for decades that the left is like.
There you go again, naïve enough to believe that anyone listening to Rush would ever change their mind anyway. I grew up listening to Rush in the 90's. I changed on my own, after moving to Brazil in 2004, but some of my conversion also had to do with having my stupidity thrown back in my face long enough to cause self reflection. Some here probably remember me posting as Aselahx on the ZLMB board where I was a fervent defender of the Bush administration. As someone with personal experience "changing his worldview" I think I have more insight into what that takes. The same is true with leaving Mormonism. It required a tone of hard hitting jackasses to throw my stupidity back in my face. Your theory that people only become dissuaded by overwhelming them with sympathy and kindness doesn't hold water in the real world.
Dismissing conservatives as being incapable of changing their minds is a self fulfilling prophecy. People can’t change if we don’t give them the space to change.
I'm hardly the only one acknowledging the basic fact that the base of the Republican party is not going to be changed. I see political scientists, pundits, Democrat and Republican strategists reiterate this fact over and over every day.

But hey, you keep doing you. I'm sure you're bound to convert your share of Ajaxs', subgenius's, Mikes and Bingers through the sheer power of your compassion.
"I am not an American ... In my view premarital sex should be illegal ...(there are) mentally challenged people with special needs like myself- Ajax18
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Res Ipsa
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Re: RvW Overturned - Abortions Now Illegal

Post by Res Ipsa »

I'm sorry if it isn't something you cannot discuss without personal attacks.
:roll:
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Re: RvW Overturned - Abortions Now Illegal

Post by drumdude »

For those of us who support some degree of right to abortion, what limits to that right do you support? Because it seems like the lack of agreement on the extent of the right to abortion (limit on the gestation age) is actually what led to this disaster.
After Democrats swept to power in 1992, the same year that the Supreme Court upheld Roe by a 5–4 vote in its Casey decision, there was a concerted effort in Congress to codify Roe by passing the Freedom of Choice Act (FOCA).

On the campaign trail in 2008, presidential candidate Barack Obama said that signing FOCA into law would be the “first thing” he’d do ​​as president. But though he swept to power with a 60-seat Senate majority and a 256-seat House majority, there was no legislative movement on FOCA during the first two years of Obama’s presidency.

FOCA’s legislative text made plain that no state could restrict abortion “at any time” in pregnancy so long as the procedure was needed to protect the “health” of the mother. The term “health” was left undefined, and an open amendment process could have narrowed its meaning, so that the bill would protect only those with serious physical — as opposed to psychological — health issues.

“I’m firmly pro-choice for the first three months of pregnancy,” Democratic congressman Paul McHale of Pennsylvania told CQ. “But I have a great deal of difficulty as a matter of conscience accepting elective termination [of pregnancy] at that last stage in the gestational process.”

https://www.nationalreview.com/2022/06/ ... he-chance/


Would everyone here support a federal abortion rights law even if it restricted that right to say the first 3 months only? That seems so much better than no right at all.
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Re: RvW Overturned - Abortions Now Illegal

Post by Some Schmo »

The problem is this stupid idea that an abortion is murder.

Words have meaning. Calling terminating a pregnancy "murder" is like calling crushing an acorn "chopping down a tree." Sorry, but that's not how English works.

Otherwise, I get to say masturbation is murder because sperm cells that don't fertilize die without fulfilling their sacred purpose, and every single sperm that doesn't fertilize an egg is a mortal sin. So now you're invariably screwed. You can't even have sex now because only one in billions of sperm actually does the fertilizing, so you're just murdering billions even when having procreative sex. Because my god says so. So there. Checkmate. Ha! God said it. In your face! Time to take all forms of male orgasm to the Supreme Court!

See how damned stupid and transparent that is?

I think it's fair to say much more has been invested in a live person than a tiny fetus. Much more is at stake, especially for a grown women faced with the prospect of birthing a child and it's innumerable consequences.
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Some Schmo
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Re: RvW Overturned - Abortions Now Illegal

Post by Some Schmo »

It occurs to me that the only way you're going to get thoughtless people to rally around a cause is to reframe that cause as something about which they actually care. That's why they call this health care procedure a "murder" - to get weak-minded people on board with pro-birth by making abortion an irrational, emotional issue.

And this is why it's impossible to believe people who erroneously call themselves "pro-life" have genuinely, rationally thought this issue through.
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Re: RvW Overturned - Abortions Now Illegal

Post by Chap »

Schmo's point about the murder of sperm has led me to consider the following thought experiment:

Case A:

I take a human sperm, and a human ovum, and put them in very close proximity, but do not let them come into contact. Then I release a killing blast of X-ray radiation.

Case B:

I take a human sperm, and a human ovum, and put them in very close proximity, but do not let them come into contact. Then I remove the supposed barrier, and the sperm penetrates the egg, and fuses its genetic material with that of the ovum. Then I release a killing blast of X-ray radiation.

Everybody agrees, I think, that Case A is not murder. To radical anti-abortionists however, Case B is presumably murder, since I have ended a human life, and I should go to jail for a very long time.

Does that make a lot of sense?
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Re: RvW Overturned - Abortions Now Illegal

Post by honorentheos »

On the other side, to believe ending the biological processes of life of a fetus at nine months just prior to it being born vs allowing it to be born and then taking it's life are distinctly different is no less a rejection of the scientific facts around the state just prior and immediately following birth.

Thus, the argument demands consideration of something more. As noted, that's generally understood to be when a human fetus having personhood should be recognized. As with most things in nature the spectrum on which development occurs isn't parceled nearly into quanta despite What to Expect While You Are Expecting suggests. It's inherently complicated. Oversimplifying it to conform to ones emotional state is wrongheaded regardless of which side of the debate one favors.
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Re: RvW Overturned - Abortions Now Illegal

Post by Chap »

honorentheos wrote:
Mon Jul 04, 2022 3:59 pm
On the other side, to believe ending the biological processes of life of a fetus at nine months just prior to it being born vs allowing it to be born and then taking it's life are distinctly different is no less a rejection of the scientific facts around the state just prior and immediately following birth.

Thus, the argument demands consideration of something more. As noted, that's generally understood to be when a human fetus having personhood should be recognized. As with most things in nature the spectrum on which development occurs isn't parceled nearly into quanta despite What to Expect While You Are Expecting suggests. It's inherently complicated. Oversimplifying it to conform to ones emotional state is wrongheaded regardless of which side of the debate one favors.
Exactly. It was in that direction that my thought experiment was directed. I don't think that there can be more than a very, very few of the people who wanted Roe v. Wade to stay who believed that a woman at full term in a birthing suite and already in labour should be able to say "Hell no! I've changed my mind. Just kill the damn thing for me, OK?".

As we move along the time continuum between the sperm/ovum encounter and the moment of full-term delivery, would not most people agree that the requirements for a termination rightly move from being a decision made by the uterus owner alone to something in which society as a whole begins to claim the right to demand that certain tests must be applied before termination is legal?

And that brings us to the point: we are talking about how law is to be written, not what one would say to a pregnant female friend who wanted to discuss her personal situation. And law is a very blunt instrument, but alas a necessary instrument.
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