God Creation

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
User avatar
MeDotOrg
Stake President
Posts: 582
Joined: Fri Oct 30, 2020 9:55 pm
Location: San Francisco

Re: God Creation

Post by MeDotOrg »

Hawkeye wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:15 pm
I think I should have the right to voluntarily opt out of the that system. Would it be within your moral code to kill me to keep me from opting out of that system? That sounds a lot like slavery doesn't it? It sure isn't freedom.
Imagine you're a caveman who refuses to keep watch at night because you want to opt out of the system. Your freedom from the tyranny of 'the system' could put everyone else in danger.

We are not cavemen. Our society is huge and multifaceted. So one man missing from his post does not mean much. But when a culture reaches a certain size, it is the sheer mass of the culture that creates a secondary moral dilemma: Kant's question What if everybody did it?

When I was growing up, everyone had a backyard incinerator. You burned your trash. The morality of trash burning is not absolute. But if enough humans burn their trash it becomes a problem for other humans. You may call it slavery to lose your freedom to burn your trash, but the larger and more complex a society becomes, the more individual liberty can be constrained.

If someone really wants to 'opt out' of the system, go live in the woods. Find out what life is really like when you opt out. Most people just want to opt out of their obligations, but do not want to opt out of the benefits of the society they want to reject.
The great problem of any civilization is how to rejuvenate itself without rebarbarization.
- Will Durant
"Of what meaning is the world without mind? The question cannot exist."
- Edwin Land
User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 5072
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:04 am

Re: God Creation

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:54 pm
Yep. A moral code doesn't require objectivity -- it only requires agreement.
Not that I think every word uttered and every sentence written must’ve been thoroughly thought through before publicizing them; as such I’m a little surprised at that position you’ve taken. Do you really believe a moral code is the result of a social contract with another, rather than internally developed, and if so, would you mind lending a few more sentences to that thought so we can understand your perspective a little better?

While I agree moral legal codes arise out of group dynamics and comprises, I don’t know if I need an agreement with the world to not steal an item when no one is looking and the impact of my action is more or less negligible. Perhaps there’s a difference between a moral code and an ethos.

- Doc
1. Speech is aggression.
2. Every utterance has a winner or a loser.
3. Curiosity is feigned.
4. Lying is performative.
5. Stupidity is power.
User avatar
Some Schmo
God
Posts: 1794
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:21 am

Re: God Creation

Post by Some Schmo »

MeDotOrg wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:22 pm
If someone really wants to 'opt out' of the system, go live in the woods. Find out what life is really like when you opt out. Most people just want to opt out of their obligations, but do not want to opt out of the benefits of the society they want to reject.
+1000
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.
User avatar
Doctor CamNC4Me
God
Posts: 5072
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 2:04 am

Re: God Creation

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

MeDotOrg wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:22 pm
Most people just want to opt out of their obligations, but do not want to opt out of the benefits of the society they want to reject.
That’s an excellent point. Perhaps Ajax should every day start counting his blessings one by one; I think he’d be surprised at what the Lord has done. Being burdened with loads of cares can make that cross heavy to bear, so practicing mindfulness, ie counting your blessings, will help his doubts fly away, and he’d sing a tune day by day. More importantly, when he look at others with their lands and gold, he can just imagine his heavenly rewards with wealth untold. And so amid political conflict, whether great or small, he knows God is over all and will comfort him til his journey’s end.

- Doc
1. Speech is aggression.
2. Every utterance has a winner or a loser.
3. Curiosity is feigned.
4. Lying is performative.
5. Stupidity is power.
Hawkeye
CTR B
Posts: 159
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:37 pm

Re: God Creation

Post by Hawkeye »

People like me and the people like me that I know give to various charitable causes (and also sometimes to people in person) mainly because of a sense of shared humanity with people in need. We don't need a belief in a deity to make us feel that way, any more than (I assume) you need belief in a deity to motivate yourself to help your own friends and neighbours. Or do you?
Is this shared sense of humanity just something that you're born with? What if you didn't initially have a shared sense of humanity with your neighbors? What reason would you have to change your attitude and start working a little longer and a little harder to provide for them?
The best part about this is waiting four years to see how all the crazy apocalyptic predictions made by the fear mongering idiots in Right Wing media turned out to be painfully wrong...Gasoline would hit $10/gallon. Hyperinflation would ensue.
Icarus
User avatar
canpakes
God
Posts: 4793
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:25 am

Re: God Creation

Post by canpakes »

ajax, given that you’ve been asking some interesting questions for others, here’s another for you:

If tomorrow you were to discover - without doubt - that God (however defined by you) did not exist, what would change about your interactions with others?
Hawkeye
CTR B
Posts: 159
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:37 pm

Re: God Creation

Post by Hawkeye »

canpakes wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:12 pm
ajax, given that you’ve been asking some interesting questions for others, here’s another for you:

If tomorrow you were to discover - without doubt - that God (however defined by you) did not exist, what would change about your interactions with others?
It's hard to say with so much inertia. But everything would change for me. If you think I'm bad now, you wouldn't want to be around me as a nonbeliever.
The best part about this is waiting four years to see how all the crazy apocalyptic predictions made by the fear mongering idiots in Right Wing media turned out to be painfully wrong...Gasoline would hit $10/gallon. Hyperinflation would ensue.
Icarus
User avatar
canpakes
God
Posts: 4793
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:25 am

Re: God Creation

Post by canpakes »

Hawkeye wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:17 pm
canpakes wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:12 pm
ajax, given that you’ve been asking some interesting questions for others, here’s another for you:

If tomorrow you were to discover - without doubt - that God (however defined by you) did not exist, what would change about your interactions with others?
It's hard to say with so much inertia. But everything would change for me. If you think I'm bad now, you wouldn't want to be around me as a nonbeliever.
Thanks for responding.

Is this to say that your behaviors now are more predicated on meeting some requirements for a heavenly reward after death?
User avatar
Jersey Girl
God
Posts: 5153
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:51 am
Location: In my head

Re: God Creation

Post by Jersey Girl »

I am going to reply to your relatives, canpakes.

I know you probably think it is of no use, but when I read this post, I knew I was meant to reply to it based on the previous posts of mine where I went out on a limb and made suggestions about how to approach Christians who are let's say, caught up in MAGA and off base according to the Bible.

I am no Bible scholar, but I think I am equipped enough to reply to the ideas of theirs that you have shared.

I don't know who the Enlows are but I will find out. Beyond that, I will reply here later today when I've got time to sit with it and do my best to make a response here. I went out on a limb and posted my ideas here. I think it is my responsibility to act on what I myself forwarded here.

I'll have to pull the politics out of it and appeal to their ideas according to the very foundation of their argument like I suggested we all do whenever we are faced with that opportunity.

I already know what approach I plan to take, I just have to get things done and hopefully if there's anything I missed in my plan, it will come to me while I am out and about. But you can count on me to make a reply to this.

I've bolded the focal point of my reply. I think this is important.


canpakes wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 1:47 pm
Jersey Girl wrote: :)
cp I went back and viewed your original post. You really said crap. :lol:
Yes, I ‘said crap’. :) I’ve seen at least two dear relatives decide to take the train to Crazy Town and go full in on the most batshit nutty election crap. And although they were on the evangelical side of things prior to 2020 (‘dinosaur bones’ are tools of Satan!), they’ve just let themselves be led further into that madness by folks who operate under the guise of being a mouthpiece for God, like the Enlows. There’s no longer any tether to reality along those lines for them.

I’ve only had a chance to skim your reply so far; I’ll read it more carefully in a moment. I will mention, though - with regard to your suggestion to engage these faithful folks with their own weapon - I once asked a relative to shed some light on their abortion rationale given that abortion isn’t mentioned as forbidden within the Bible, and that Numbers 5:11-31 actually contains an ‘abortion recipe’ and application (‘unfaithful wife = abort the kid’). Their response was a full page of the most tortured interpretive reading of scripture that I’ve ever seen, basically giving the message that what is literally written within the Bible is substantially less important for some believers than how they want to spin it to fit their position.

In other words, the source material for their faith is just as easily tossed aside in an argument if that makes it more convenient for some to maintain that they’re ‘right’. End result: God is on their side, even if God said something different or nothing at all … and you can’t argue with God. So everyone better do as God (i.e. the believer) wants, and God (i.e. the believer) will make you do it via legislation, if necessary.


It’s a great way to just push off the discussion onto the invisible entity, then sit back and stop thinking about it, while advancing an agenda.
Last edited by Jersey Girl on Wed Aug 03, 2022 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Slava Ukraini!
Hawkeye
CTR B
Posts: 159
Joined: Tue Aug 03, 2021 1:37 pm

Re: God Creation

Post by Hawkeye »

Is this to say that your behaviors now are more predicated on meeting some requirements for a heavenly reward after death?
Ultimately I do it for my own happiness. That's a sticking point for me because many within Christianity many would call this an impure motive. They claim to do what they do out of love of God or gratitude. But what if you don't feel this gratitude? Why would you even try to change your attitude? For me that answer is because it's in my own self interest and the interests of others to do so.

But for an atheist, what if you're born with the DNA of a psychopath or a cleptomaniac? What would motivate you to go through the difficulties of trying to change that? What makes you choose to continue living life when life isn't good?
The best part about this is waiting four years to see how all the crazy apocalyptic predictions made by the fear mongering idiots in Right Wing media turned out to be painfully wrong...Gasoline would hit $10/gallon. Hyperinflation would ensue.
Icarus
Post Reply