God Creation

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honorentheos
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Re: God Creation

Post by honorentheos »

ajax18 wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:42 am
If you don’t have that sense, there are ways to develop it.
What would be your motivation for developing this sense of commonality?
The preservation of civilized society.

Honestly? I think the issue with religious belief and idealism is it offers a fictional utopia as an alternative to creating the best possible society in the present. You say you'd go full chaotic evil if you lost belief in an ideal morality. I don't genuinely think most people are capable of that for long because at some point the rage and hate gives way to a realization that the bed you are pissing all over is the only one you ever get to sleep in. Ever.
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canpakes
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Re: God Creation

Post by canpakes »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 12:48 am
canpakes I do not agree that what you referenced is a recipe for abortion.
Check out the whole passage. I’m open to other interpretation, but it seems pretty cut’n’dried. There’s an infidelity ‘test’ administered by a priest working a recipe of grain, holy water, and floor dust, which is administered to the woman; If the woman’s child is a product of that relationship, then she will miscarry. This is literally the intent.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... erface=amp

Even if it were, you will not get far with Christians in referencing OT law that involved strict obedience to the laws, penalties, offerings and sacrifices thereof, for the simple fact that Christ himself served as sacrifice for our sins and said himself that he was the fulfillment of the law.

Christians do not believe they are held to OT law.
We believe that on account of Christ, we are under Grace, not the OT Law.

If you were to present that to me personally as a support for abortion rights, …

I’m not. My question to my relative was, that despite the claim by many evangelicals that God is against abortion, there would seem to be nothing within the Bible to back that assertion, and instead - in wild contrast - there’s a recipe and procedure for aborting an illegitimate child.

In my previous post, I stated this:
the source material for their faith is just as easily tossed aside in an argument if that makes it more convenient for some to maintain that they’re ‘right’.
… which you’ve backed up by reminding readers that today’s Christians don’t claim to have to follow Levitical law. I agree. Not that Christians won’t point to OT scripture to use as argument against, say, masturbation or same-sex relations anyway, of course, because they do. You and I both know that this happens, which makes moot your wider point about Levitical law not used as a yardstick today. But that’s not quite where I was going with my example. Rather, I was stating that the moral battle lines claimed by evangelicals to be against abortion aren’t found within the Bible. At best, we’re left only with a tacit acceptance of an official procedure for practicing it.
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Jersey Girl
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Re: God Creation

Post by Jersey Girl »

canpakes...I read the entire chapter and as I said it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter which translation you use. It doesn't matter if that IS a recipe for abortion.

What I attempted to show you there is two-fold...1). That if you yourself were to try to use Jealousie Law as a defense for abortion rights as a protected human right under the U.S. Constitution, your argument would fall flat on it's face because my strategy would be to turn that back on you by shoving every bit of Levitical Law in your face, put you on the spot to make you accept any number of things under Levitical Law including a condemnation for same sex marriage and undo your argument in a NY minute because if you are going to support one Law, I would see to it that you will support ALL of the Law or be found a raging hypocrite for cherry picking one single aspect of the Law to make me accept abortion as a human right because hey folks it's in the Bible, while ignoring all the rest, 2). and further...I would tell you that Christian's are not under the Law because Christ fulfilled the Law with all of it's prescribed offerings and sacrifices so you can take your recipe for abortion and stuff it.

THAT is why when attempting to engage a Christian on whatever it is that your relatives are forwarding, you go directly to the NT and use that as the basis for any counter argument you would like to make. You go to the NT and you go to Jesus. Do not pass go and stay out of the OT.

Example, the Israelites being held (did I spell that right? Autocorrect picked it up and now my head is spinning) Jealousie Law as the price of suspected adultery in the OT....is then replaced with the story of the woman who was caught in the act of adultery, dragged out by a crowd to be stoned until Christ intervenes and instructs the crowd let he who is without sin cast the first stone and when they disperse (because ALL have sinned) he tells the woman to go and sin no more.

You use that same type of technique when you want to engage a Christian making political claims that are NOT in keeping with the NT and the example of Christ in the NT, only you are not toggling back and forth between OT/NT, you are pitching your tent in the NT and you're not breaking camp.

Is the mud muddier now? Because if their political claims do not match what is presented in the NT, they will be forced to abandoned the pretense that God is on their side of the argument...because if it's not in the NT, then it's not on their side.

Simply put: In the case of a self proclaimed Christian...go to the NT and Jesus, and stay there. YOU USE THE APPROPRIATE FOUNDATIONAL TEXT WHICH IS THE NT. And if you can't engage with respect, don't even try it.

If you can share a sample claim they are making (besides God is on our side!) I can try to show you that right here on the screen but only if I can counter it with the NT.

I'm freaking tired. Why are you doing this to me? :lol:
Slava Ukraini!
Chap
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Re: God Creation

Post by Chap »

ajax18 wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:31 pm
So you've got nothing.
canpakes wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 10:13 pm
ajax, are you replying above to Chap, or me? There are quotes from both of us, there.
ajax18 wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 11:31 pm
What reasons could you give the drug addict or child criminal to become a responsible contributing member of society. Contrary to Chap's assertion, there's plenty of them out there.
(a) I do not think I can reasonably be said to have asserted the contrary of Hawkeye's statement that there are "plenty of [people who are a} drug addict or child criminal ... out there' . As usual, he is setting up a straw man rather than facing the hard task of addressing what people are actually saying.

(b) I do on the other hand assert the following:
Chap wrote:
Wed Aug 03, 2022 9:07 pm
... all normal human babies are born with capacities for developing adult empathy, and those capacities develop into adult empathy in the course of upbringing by normal human parents, and interacting with a peer group living in social circumstances that are not radically disrupted from the outside. ...

Oh yes, and from observing some completely atheist families in more than one culture, I know for a fact that religion plays no essential role in the development of decent caring human beings.


(c) As for Hawkeye's request to be given 'reasons could you give the drug addict or child criminal to become a responsible contributing member of society', I respond to that by pointing out that you don't 'reason' somebody out of a way of life profoundly alienated from normal human society, and particularly not by telling them 'if you don't stop doing that <name of preferred deity> will be very annoyed, and will punish you'. You have to re-insert them into a normal way of life, and that requires devoting human and financial resources to doing so. You can, for instance, make it possible for people to come out of prison into a worthwhile job in a supportive environment. One example of how that can be done is here - Timpson's is a very successful UK chain of service providers who I use regularly for such things as watch and shoe repairs, simply because they are very good at what they do:

Prison Training Academies
Timpson have invested in a number of training academies, which are located within prison grounds.

We recognise the value of vocational training at Timpson, and know well the significant impact this can have on reducing re-offending. That’s why we have invested in several specialist training academies, all of which are located within prison premises.
Rather than prisoners completing menial tasks whilst in custody, which are unlikely to lead to employment, we provide them with practical training to better prepare them for employment upon release. This in turn, can make a positive impact on our communities by helping to reduce re-offending rates. Our training academies mimic our High Street stores and enable prisoners to be trained in all the services we provide. The only exception to this is key cutting, for obvious reasons!

Once a prisoner has completed a period of training and is released, they are already fully skilled in our services and raring to go. Our training academies allow individuals to feel a valued part of the Timpson or Max Photo team and this can also help restore confidence and self-esteem. On their day of release, we will often meet them at the prison gates and introduce them to their new colleagues and provide them with uniform, lunch and settle them in to their new home.

We believe this approach is extremely effective in ensuring our ex-offender colleagues have a much-needed head start and can help them transition smoothly into the workplace. This proven approach to training and recruitment is now copied by other leading firms. We have an impressive ex-offender retention rate of approximately 75% and that makes everyone in the business who plays a part in ex-offender resettlement extremely proud.
Timpson's is a business who do what they do because it is good business. But even if one was to use tax dollars on good programmes to get alienated people back into normal life, it will always be a lot cheaper than paying to have them arrested, prosecuted and incarcerated over and over again, as well as taking the economic damage caused by the harm they do during a life of crime. (Of course, the owners of private incarceration companies will make lots of money in the process - but that is not what the criminal justice system is for, is it?)


Hawkeye - if you reply to me, use the normal quote features that identify me as the poster you are quoting, or I am going to start complaining to the mods that you are disrupting the board by deliberately making it impossible to tell who you are talking to.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
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Jersey Girl
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Re: God Creation

Post by Jersey Girl »

What am I doing trying to run some kind of debate school around here?

canpakes...I would use the SAME technique if I were to oppose the work of a false teacher proclaiming to be Christian...like those Enlow people.

It's all the same thing, don't you see?

If a self proclaimed Prophet of Christianity is spewing stuff that is not congruent with the NT, they are functioning outside of Christianity.

If a self proclaimed Christian is spewing stuff that is not congruent with the NT and claiming God is on their side, they are functioning outside of Christianity.

Both the Prophet and the Christian are using Christianity as a tool to forward whatever the heck it is.
Both of these things should offend Christians perhaps even more than Atheists.

You use the NT as the method to disarm false teachings and false beliefs, so in the case of the relatives, once they are disarmed, all they are left with is their stupid politics with no God to wave around to sanction their stupid politics.

And the cheese stands alone...and tinfoil is the new black. If the hat fits, let ''em wear it. But they do NOT get to empower themselves by using God so take it away from them so all they have got left is the hat.

I'm going to bed. I don't care what you say. Stop keeping me up. Get AWAY from me. Nobody likes you canpakes. Not one single soul on this board likes you.

You can't control me, canpakes.
Slava Ukraini!
Chap
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Re: God Creation

Post by Chap »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:58 am

[...]

Get AWAY from me. Nobody likes you canpakes. Not one single soul on this board likes you.

You can't control me, canpakes.
Jersey Girl - i do not dislike canpakes, and I frequently read his posts with interest, whether I agree with them or not.

I suggest that a good remedy for the annoyance that reading posts by canpakes apparently causes you might be to put him on ignore for a while.
Maksutov:
That's the problem with this supernatural stuff, it doesn't really solve anything. It's a placeholder for ignorance.
Mayan Elephant:
Not only have I denounced the Big Lie, I have denounced the Big lie big lie.
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canpakes
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Re: God Creation

Post by canpakes »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:58 am
I'm going to bed. I don't care what you say. Stop keeping me up. Get AWAY from me. Nobody likes you canpakes. Not one single soul on this board likes you.

You can't control me, canpakes.
What? Me?

I don’t know what you’re talking about …

:: evil laugh ::

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canpakes
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Re: God Creation

Post by canpakes »

Chap wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:52 am
As for Hawkeye's request to be given 'reasons could you give the drug addict or child criminal to become a responsible contributing member of society', I respond to that by pointing out that you don't 'reason' somebody out of a way of life profoundly alienated from normal human society, and particularly not by telling them 'if you don't stop doing that <name of preferred deity> will be very annoyed, and will punish you'. You have to re-insert them into a normal way of life, and that requires devoting human and financial resources to doing so.

Agreed; I don’t think that threats about an afterlife wielded by any God are really going to make a committed addict or abuser change their ways. The situation is a bit more complex than that.
Hawkeye
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Re: God Creation

Post by Hawkeye »

What would be your motivation for developing this sense of commonality?

The preservation of civilized society.
I can see that answer satisfying you. But I see a lot of drug addicts out there who are happy with their life as long as they have plenty of drugs and someone else to pay their bills. They have no reason to change because they enjoy doing drugs.

I also see plenty of thieves who are happier stealing than they are working. They don't seem to be swayed by the interests of preserving a civilized society. So I ask again, what motivation can you provide for them to change the course of their life and start working, saving, and giving back to society?
The best part about this is waiting four years to see how all the crazy apocalyptic predictions made by the fear mongering idiots in Right Wing media turned out to be painfully wrong...Gasoline would hit $10/gallon. Hyperinflation would ensue.
Icarus
Hawkeye
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Re: God Creation

Post by Hawkeye »

You have to re-insert them into a normal way of life, and that requires devoting human and financial resources to doing so. You can, for instance, make it possible for people to come out of prison into a worthwhile job in a supportive environment. One example of how that can be done is here - Timpson's is a very successful UK chain of service providers who I use regularly for such things as watch and shoe repairs, simply because they are very good at what they do:
So give people enough money and opportunity and that will make honest men of them? Why wouldn't more people choose the criminal path if it leads to such blessings?
The best part about this is waiting four years to see how all the crazy apocalyptic predictions made by the fear mongering idiots in Right Wing media turned out to be painfully wrong...Gasoline would hit $10/gallon. Hyperinflation would ensue.
Icarus
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