God Creation

The Off-Topic forum for anything non-LDS related, such as sports or politics. Rated PG through PG-13.
User avatar
canpakes
God
Posts: 4793
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 1:25 am

Re: God Creation

Post by canpakes »

Hawkeye wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:06 pm
You have to re-insert them into a normal way of life, and that requires devoting human and financial resources to doing so. You can, for instance, make it possible for people to come out of prison into a worthwhile job in a supportive environment. One example of how that can be done is here - Timpson's is a very successful UK chain of service providers who I use regularly for such things as watch and shoe repairs, simply because they are very good at what they do:
So give people enough money and opportunity and that will make honest men of them? Why wouldn't more people choose the criminal path if it leads to such blessings?

I didn’t see where ‘giving money’ was part of the program that Chap described, but offering skill training can help the recipient adopt a purpose. Being a functional and contributing member of society, with a skill to offer, is something that you value, I’d guess. Is that a wrong guess?

When you did missionary work, was your work solely limited to ‘the discussions’? Or did you also assist some of your potential converts in other ways?
Res Ipsa
God
Posts: 6094
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:44 pm
Location: Playing Rabbits

Re: God Creation

Post by Res Ipsa »

ajax18 wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 2:42 am
If you don’t have that sense, there are ways to develop it.
What would be your motivation for developing this sense of commonality?
I try to cultivate it in myself, so here are the reasons why I do that. First, it reduces my overall level of anger and frustration, which leads me to treat my family, friends, acquaintances and strangers with more respect, kindness, and civility. I feel happier and better about myself as a person when I do that, and, for the most part people respond in kind. Again, as a generality, people respond to others with reciprocal behavior: anger begets anger and kindness begets kindness. When the latter happens, that's two people who are happier as a result of my interaction with them.

Second, it reduces anxiety. I'm prone to both anxiety and depression. I've had anxiety to the point that I feel completely paralyzed -- unable to do anything. It's easy to get sucked into the sensationalism and polarization encouraged by mainstream, partisan, and social media. There are no more problems that we can sit down and figure out solutions to: everything is an existential crisis. All people can do is lash out because to do otherwise means the end of life the universe and everything. It's hyper stimulation of the body/brain's fight or flight (or its more modern expanded versions), and because there is nowhere to flee to, it's fight, fight, fight, fight. Disagreements among people become wars among enemies.

My humble little brain wasn't built for danger alarms 24/7. The systems that worked pretty well when my ancestors needed to avoid predators on the plains of Africa haven't had a chance to evolve to cope with the firehose of danger signals that never stop bombarding me. The part of my brain that thinks it reasons is the most recent part of my brain to evolve, and it's fragile. It's easily override by the the systems that operate without my conscious awareness of them being triggered. Developing a sense of community and commonality helps my brain filter the danger signals better. Rather than getting caught up in a whirlwind of anger, contempt, and hatred, my brain grounds its thinking in what I have in common with my fellow humans. Existential crises deescalate back into problems that are solvable by my fellow humans. Enemies become fellow humans I have disagreements with. Racheting down the overall level of danger warnings allows me to act on those problems I can do something about instead of being paralyzed by anxiety. And it gives me the perspective I need to set aside things I can do nothing about rather than let worrying about them get in my way. I feel happier, calmer, and more productive. I like my life much, much better when I feel this sense of commonality.

Third, I feel less lonely. I don't feel like it's me against the world. I only feel that way if I view everyone else as being fundamentally different from me. Flipping that notion to emphasize commonalities rather than differences lets me appreciate that others have the same types of problems and struggles that I do. I don't think it's the same as having, say, a religious community. But it has that same feeling.

Fourth, I've become convinced that the basis of individualism is a mistake. Many priming studies have shown that our behavior is influenced by the nature of our interactions with others in so many ways that we are not aware of that thinking of ourselves as completely independent entities is counter to our actual nature. The Ajax that existed before you started reading this post is not the Ajax that exists right now. Thoughts you have, decisions you make, and behaviors you engage in will be different because you read this post. But you won't be aware of them because they occur in the part of your brain that runs without your conscious input. Because every interaction with one of your fellow humans changes you, the notion that we are all independent agents is simply wrong. Developing a sense of commonality is more in line with our evidence of how the brain works than pretending each of us is an island.

Finally, civilization, especially our modern civilization, is built on interdependence and cooperation. Without it, the civilization collapses, resulting in massive human suffering. Take the Texas power grid as an object lesson. One of the problems of electricity generation and distribution is how to handle peak loads. The powers that be in Texas decided that they wanted a strictly market based system, which, of course, is premised on decisions by individuals. So, they essentially disconnected their grid from the rest of the country so they would not be subject to federal regulations. The free market would create that best of all possible worlds -- the most efficient production and allocation of electricity, resulting in lower costs for all.

There is just one little problem. Running out of electricity is, well, bad. It literally kills one's citizens. The way utilities typically handle this problem is to have excess generating capacity that can be brought on line when needed. But, there's no profit in having generators just sitting around most of the year. With a profit maximizing private market system, there is no incentive to build excess capacity. Even worse, because electricity is rationed in periods of high demand by increasing the price to consumers, the power generators have higher profits when there is a shortage of electricity than when there is plenty to go around. As a result, during periods of extreme temperatures, Texas are faced with crushing utility bills and a grid that fails.

If Texas were connected to a national energy grid through which electricity could be shuffled around, Texas wouldn't need as much excess generating capacity for its own power grid. Right now, it's a very comfortable 61 degrees outside, with a projected high of 67. As opposed to a few days ago, no one is running air conditioning. I never use my furnace during the summer (in fact, I turn it off). We've got excess capacity here that could be tapped by another place in the U.S. that is short of power, if we have an interconnected energy grid that allows us to shuffle power around. I know we do it with at least parts of Canada as well as with California. And I haven't looked at how interconnected we are in a long time.

The interconnected power grid that my state is a part of benefits everyone connected through interdependence and cooperation. And you can multiply this example by a million if you just start taking a look at how the world actually works today. The sense of commonality among fellow humans is the foundation for the cooperation and interdependence that is our modern civilization. The current hyper individualism and partisan conflict in the U.S. is corrosive to what makes modern civilization work.

I'm sure there's more, but that's not a bad list.
he/him
"Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see."
– Rene Magritte
Res Ipsa
God
Posts: 6094
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 6:44 pm
Location: Playing Rabbits

Re: God Creation

Post by Res Ipsa »

Hawkeye wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:06 pm
You have to re-insert them into a normal way of life, and that requires devoting human and financial resources to doing so. You can, for instance, make it possible for people to come out of prison into a worthwhile job in a supportive environment. One example of how that can be done is here - Timpson's is a very successful UK chain of service providers who I use regularly for such things as watch and shoe repairs, simply because they are very good at what they do:
So give people enough money and opportunity and that will make honest men of them? Why wouldn't more people choose the criminal path if it leads to such blessings?
Ajax, when you quote someone else's post, please identify the person you are quoting. There are several ways you can do this. You can use the board's quote function. This will automatically identify who you are quoting as well as automatically create a link the post you are quoting from. If you don't know how to use it, please shoot me a PM. The reader should not have to wade through a long thread to figure out who you are quoting and where the post you are quoting is located.
he/him
"Everything we see hides another thing, we always want to see what is hidden by what we see."
– Rene Magritte
Gunnar
God
Posts: 1621
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:32 pm
Location: California

Re: God Creation

Post by Gunnar »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:58 am
Nobody likes you canpakes. Not one single soul on this board likes you.
You are dead wrong about that, Jersey Girl and I doubt that you believe that yourself. I am surprised that you even said it. Canpakes, like you, is high on my list of most interesting and best-informed posters here, and I respect and agree with what he has to say more often than I disagree with him.
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
User avatar
Some Schmo
God
Posts: 1794
Joined: Wed Oct 28, 2020 3:21 am

Re: God Creation

Post by Some Schmo »

Gunnar wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:55 pm
Jersey Girl wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:58 am
Nobody likes you canpakes. Not one single soul on this board likes you.
You are dead wrong about that, Jersey Girl and I doubt that you believe that yourself. I am surprised that you even said it. Canpakes, like you, is high on my list of most interesting and best-informed posters here, and I respect and agree with what he has to say more often than I disagree with him.
I read it as Jersey Girl kidding around.

But reading text never gives you the tone the writer intended, so it's hard to know for sure in any given case.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.
Marcus
God
Posts: 1895
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2021 10:44 pm

Re: God Creation

Post by Marcus »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 8:58 am

[...]

Get AWAY from me. Nobody likes you canpakes. Not one single soul on this board likes you.

You can't control me, canpakes.
:lol: well. at least i know you well enough now to laugh at this. early on in my posting here, i recall i asked you to quit being so mean to ... i think it was some schmo. you told me you guys were friends from way back and to BUTT OUT!

:D discussion boards. a microcosm of life.
Gunnar
God
Posts: 1621
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:32 pm
Location: California

Re: God Creation

Post by Gunnar »

Some Schmo wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:23 pm
Gunnar wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 4:55 pm

You are dead wrong about that, Jersey Girl and I doubt that you believe that yourself. I am surprised that you even said it. Canpakes, like you, is high on my list of most interesting and best-informed posters here, and I respect and agree with what he has to say more often than I disagree with him.
I read it as Jersey Girl kidding around.

But reading text never gives you the tone the writer intended, so it's hard to know for sure in any given case.
You're almost certainly right about that. I, of all people, should have recognized that more than most, considering how long we have known each other. :)
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
User avatar
Jersey Girl
God
Posts: 5153
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:51 am
Location: In my head

Re: God Creation

Post by Jersey Girl »

Gunnar wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:46 pm
Some Schmo wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 5:23 pm

I read it as Jersey Girl kidding around.

But reading text never gives you the tone the writer intended, so it's hard to know for sure in any given case.
You're almost certainly right about that. I, of all people, should have recognized that more than most, considering how long we have known each other. :)
Gunnar, you of all people should've recognized the importance of context and read the post or perhaps two posts prior that which resulted in that particular remark instead of singling out one post without wondering what preceded it. Is your intellectual curiosity on vacation or something? Tell it to get back home.

If we had a threaded view you'd see the exchanges fanning out to the side. We have to work a little harder on this linear format.

Get to work, man!!

I've known you so long that I can pick out your posts while scrolling fast without even seeing your screen name! True fact!
Slava Ukraini!
honorentheos
God
Posts: 2034
Joined: Mon Nov 23, 2020 2:15 am

Re: God Creation

Post by honorentheos »

Hawkeye wrote:
Thu Aug 04, 2022 3:49 pm
What would be your motivation for developing this sense of commonality?

The preservation of civilized society.
I can see that answer satisfying you. But I see a lot of drug addicts out there who are happy with their life as long as they have plenty of drugs and someone else to pay their bills. They have no reason to change because they enjoy doing drugs.

I also see plenty of thieves who are happier stealing than they are working. They don't seem to be swayed by the interests of preserving a civilized society. So I ask again, what motivation can you provide for them to change the course of their life and start working, saving, and giving back to society?
These examples exist right here, right now. The idealized utopian fantasy and the realist appeal are equally, right here and now, exerting their influence on them and they aren't changing.

This example lacks value for our discussion as a means of asserting religious utopian idealism is superior.

I've referenced Machiavelli elsewhere on this point before because he demonstrates that, in the absence of evidence for this fantasy utopia, if it were effective in changing people then there is an incentive for those in power to exploit it for it's civilizing effects independent of it's truth value. If true belief persuades people to act for the common good, it stands to reason successful human cultures would have these memes (in the cultural evolutionary sense) in common. They do. If there were an actual deity speaking with people and providing the basis for those beliefs we'd see they were the same across cultures. They are not.
Gunnar
God
Posts: 1621
Joined: Thu Oct 29, 2020 6:32 pm
Location: California

Re: God Creation

Post by Gunnar »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Fri Aug 05, 2022 12:00 am
Gunnar, you of all people should've recognized the importance of context and read the post or perhaps two posts prior that which resulted in that particular remark instead of singling out one post without wondering what preceded it. Is your intellectual curiosity on vacation or something? Tell it to get back home.

If we had a threaded view you'd see the exchanges fanning out to the side. We have to work a little harder on this linear format.

Get to work, man!!

I've known you so long that I can pick out your posts while scrolling fast without even seeing your screen name! True fact!
I'm just going to blame it all on the Covid-19 I just recently recovered from. :P
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
Post Reply