You are obviously out to kill me here with this mountain. Okay, I'll try to climb it.
canpakes wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 3:02 am
Jersey Girl wrote: ↑Tue Aug 02, 2022 9:21 pm
It's not about God. It's about hypocrites USING God to forward their agenda.
So what I am getting at is that it's not primarily about religious belief at all. It's about hypocritical control freaks who sometimes function under the guise of Christianity.
How does one state this without falling into the ‘othering’ trap that Res mentioned?
Like I said, you counter the very foundation of their argument...Christianity and the Bible.
What does one do when large numbers within your community - or numbers large enough to manipulate the levers of the legislature - are basically meeting the description that you give above?
You don't go at large numbers or groups. It's like someone once told me, don't try to move the mountain. Take it apart one rock at a time. Or in this case, one person at a time. The very worst thing that I think you can do (edit, what was I thinkin?) is to get before a group and shout insults at them. Don't appeal to the group, appeal to the parts of the group and put it where others can see it. When you provoke people, you're functioning the same as they are. Provoke thought in people, not people themselves. Throw the rock in the water so it can create a rippling effect--a dialogue not a shouting match.
I could have easily responded to Schmo's post that I objected to by trying to shout him down. I didn't do that. Ultimately, I tried to create a situation where we could actually communicate and I think we ended up doing a pretty good job of it though I did sort of get his attention with a strongly worded post.
Everyone has an agenda, and a method - or a weapon, if you will - that they’ll use to advance it, because most folks (as Schmo pointed out) seem to need to find their identity within their beliefs. If their weapon of choice is religion, then how does one reach an armistance? What’s the incentive for the faithful to compromise in any way if they want to stand behind their version of God and proclaim that this God - and by extension, themselves - absolutely cannot be wrong? How does one most effectively counter their need to control?
There is that mountain again.
1. If their weapon of choice is religion (make it Christianity because that is what is happening at national level) you (say it again) use the very foundation of their argument--Christianity and the Bible to counter their claims and their approach.
2. I think that it is only via consistently thoughtful discussion that an armistice can be reached. Like I said to Schmo, it's the difference between an angry shouting mob and the Jan 6th Committee presentations. Which is more effective? Which is more likely to achieve an objective?
3. Their version of God, in this case Christianity, should be supportable by Biblical scripture, canpakes. And I don't mean reaching back into the Old Testament and relying on vengeance or and eye for an eye, or whatever because a Christian is a
follower of Christ. Period. End of story. I can't rightly reach back into the Old Testament and find all the condemnations of this, that, and the other thing and vow to take an eye for an eye without acknowledging the teachings of Christ as reported in the New Testament where Christ himself countered the eye for an eye retaliation. Where is the kindness? Where is the patience? Where is the love? Where is the self control, the goodness, the peace and all the qualities that the Bible itself states are the fruits of the Spirit, the RESULT of Christian belief? Where is the love thy neighbor as thyself? Where is the let he who is without sin cast the first stone?
Where? Do you see it in them? Do you see it in MTG? Trump?
If you can't make yourself (this is my opinion) literate in the language they are supposedly speaking (foundational texts) then I say you have no hope whatsoever of dispersing the angry shouting mob.
That's exactly why last evening, I asked canpakes if they could post a series of perhaps 4 quotes made by politicians where they make claims about the God of Christianity. I can pick those apart like nobody's business and that should be the focus of criticisms leveled towards them.
We can start with Greene’s and Boebert’s statements. How will you talk any different opinion into them? And if they effectively can control or eliminate the options for nonbelievers by virtue of their position, then why would they shift position, when what they push for rewards them so well?
I have to go find those. I can do it tomorrow, canpakes. I do recall that quote from Boebert would require one to be more literate than I regarding the U.S. Constitution and American history. But the blurring of lines using God as a reference for their own personal will, I can counter that.
It would be like asking Trump to not say the sort of stupid crap that he says to gain the fawning admiration of his Base. With a third of the country (most of them very willing to claim to be on the side of God) always eager to believe any crap statement that he’ll make in order to convince themselves that they’re right rather than challenge their own assumptions, there ends up being no downside for Trump to act differently. Same for Greene and Boebert, except that they operate on a smaller scale. And same for your or my enthusiastic evangelical neighbor or relative, just acting on an even smaller scale. The payoff is the same: never having to challenge one’s own beliefs, and being rewarded by others who similarly want to remain unchallenged and seem ‘right’, regardless of whatever is true.
I have this opened for response and I'm smiling because you said crap, canpakes, and I'm just hoping that I'm reading the quote wraps correctly here and that it really IS you I am smiling at.
Making a list...
1. Trump has been saying stupid crap for his entire adult life. Trump is being aged out of the system due to the fact that people are sick of him and the Jan 6th committee is taking care of him good and proper. He's not falling apart because anyone got in his face and engaged in a shouting match. His standing is coming undone because some people are making a well reasoned and public argument against his truth claims which are being shown to be lies. They are taking him apart
one rock at a time.
2. At this point, it doesn't matter what one third of the country thinks or what an over zealous Far Right Evangelical thinks, Trump is going down. He's become an embarrassment to the GOP and even FOX is kicking him aside. Trump is gone. He's history.
3. All that said, if you are worried, if you are pissed off, if you are frustrated, if you feel like you want to beat the living hell out of that one third of the population, then I say get talking. Talk face to face, talk on social media where everyone can see it, (talking here is preaching to the choir at this point though it's a good place to refine one's thoughts), enter into dialogue and
take the anger out of it. If we don't take the anger out of it, we're just another angry mob trying to shout down the angry mob. Be the Jan 6th committee, not the shouting angry mob, and arm yourself with facts and evidence, a task which you are far more well equipped to do than I am. Use your strengths, you have the intellect to counter, I have the Biblical knowledge to counter.
I could be wrong about all of the above!
I have several super-faithful relatives immersed in that reality … wrapping their belief in God with and around a political opinion that requires believing in massive election fraud, believing that Trump was sent by God for them, believing the crap posted on Facebook by self-proclaimed modern prophets like Johnny Enlow, who reel in their faithful audience by feeding them a constant chum of ‘prophecy’ about how any minute now, God is going to magically have Biden arrested and then restore Trump back into his rightful seat of Christian destiny.
Speak their language, make yourself literate. Where do you see the Fruits of the Spirit in Trump? Where do you see the teachings of Christ in Trump? TEACH them what they claim to believe in. I can well understand why you wouldn't find that palatable, why you think it's a waste of time, why you think they won't listen. I myself, can't see it any other way except to make that strong and decisive effort.
I don’t mention this ‘because Trump’; if not for him, there’d likely be another charlatan that would spring up in his place to take the faithful flock under the wing, for the mutual benefit of both parties.
That said … and to come back to the point … what’s the one weird trick to reach into and talk with the rational center that one hopes still exists within these folks (and loved ones) minds?
You're asking me? Ever heard a shouting match between a Jersey Girl and Boy?
Just kidding...mostly. Anyway, what's the one weird trick? If I had to throw a dart and hit something real fast I would say...respect.
Respect, a willingness to listen, a willingness (I'm going to do something radical here) to share the truth in love.
Now I am going to catch hell from other Christians here because I just appropriated something from Christianity into a political discussion which is "sharing the truth in love". But I don't see why it doesn't apply.
It's okay. I'm doing the best I can here. All that said, am I frustrated? Yes. Am I deeply concerned? Yes. Do I find myself wishing I could nuke that one third of the country? Yes.
But I am as confident as I can be that exercising wisdom is key and critical right now.