From: State of the Pandemic

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Gunnar
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Re: From: State of the Pandemic

Post by Gunnar »

Hawkeye wrote:
Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:20 pm
Yet, that’s their choice. You may not agree with it, but their mask isn’t doing any harm to you.
It's their eyes. If they are misinformed enough to think benefits of a cloth mask are worth a foggy refraction, then that's fine with me. I won't be rechecking it for free. They can go somewhere else for that. I'm sure the liberal ODs will be happy to pay $850 to clean their phoropter each week and be flooded with rechecks due to fog. Or perhaps they'll just do the whole thing for free on their days off since I'm sure liberal ODs believe they're overpaid.
If you're talking about just plain cloth masks, I'm sure that they probably do little to protect the mask wearer from airborne covid virus particles. They are better, I understand, at protecting others from the mask wearers, by limiting the spread of droplets expelled by the mask wearers themselves. I also know that most cloth masks are more prone to fogging up lenses, particularly the mask wearer's own glasses. I hated that about them!

The masks required by my ophthalmologist were N95 masks, or equivalent, which he provided if the patient didn't bring their own. That is the only kind of mask I wear, though I know even they don't stop 100% of the particles. Besides that, well-designed N95 masks, I found, didn't fog up my glasses when properly worn. Now that I no longer need glasses, that is not so much of an issue with me (except when wearing sunglasses, of course), but I still make it a point to wear N95 masks whenever I need a mask.
Last edited by Gunnar on Sat Jul 23, 2022 3:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Vēritās
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Re: From: State of the Pandemic

Post by Vēritās »

Hawkeye wrote:
Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:45 pm
That being said, I don't think there's data suggesting that rhinoviruses have ever been the third leading cause of death in the US.
One of the German political parties wants to make a mask mandate this winter for influenza.
Just think, George Washington went farther than that when he forced a three week quarantine during the Small Pox epidemic. Why do you think he was able to do that?
Do you think people will be able to sue each other for battery because they caught a cold, flu, or COVID from an unmasked individual?
For those MAGA idiots who were intentionally coughing and sneezing on people just to spite them for wearing masks? Yes, they should be locked up. Trump should be locked up for killing his own supporters like Herman Cain.
And I'm talking about the COVID that now has a 99.97% survival rate for people under 70 yoa.
You keep floating out that number as if it somehow makes your outrageous position any better. You're basically saying you're perfectly fine with another million + Americans dying so long as you don't have to wear a mask at privately owned establishments.
Gunnar
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Re: From: State of the Pandemic

Post by Gunnar »

There is nothing new, unconstitutional or unpatriotic about vaccine mandates.

The Long History of Vaccine Mandates in the United States
Vaccines against smallpox during the Revolutionary War may have saved the Continental Army from defeat. It’s one example of how mandates have protected the health of Americans for more than two centuries.
Some vaccine mandates in our past history were as or more heavy-handed and draconian than anything contemplated today.

To sum up the linked article:
The recent orders by Govs. Newsom and Cuomo, as well as President Biden’s orders for Virginia and federal employees, are only the latest in a long American history of vaccine requirements dating back to George Washington and the Continental Army. Whether it be fighting in wars or protecting the health of future generations, these examples demonstrate there is nothing more patriotic than preserving public health.
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
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Binger
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Re: From: State of the Pandemic

Post by Binger »

Gunnar wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 1:25 am
There is nothing new, unconstitutional or unpatriotic about vaccine mandates.

The Long History of Vaccine Mandates in the United States
Vaccines against smallpox during the Revolutionary War may have saved the Continental Army from defeat. It’s one example of how mandates have protected the health of Americans for more than two centuries.
Some vaccine mandates in our past history were as or more heavy-handed and draconian than anything contemplated today.

To sum up the linked article:
The recent orders by Govs. Newsom and Cuomo, as well as President Biden’s orders for Virginia and federal employees, are only the latest in a long American history of vaccine requirements dating back to George Washington and the Continental Army. Whether it be fighting in wars or protecting the health of future generations, these examples demonstrate there is nothing more patriotic than preserving public health.
Are experimental vaccines new? What about mandates for experimental vaccines that clearly do not work? Is that new?
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Re: From: State of the Pandemic

Post by Res Ipsa »

canpakes wrote:
Fri Jul 22, 2022 4:36 pm
Res Ipsa wrote:
Fri Jul 22, 2022 4:25 pm
I've done lots of reading about masks, from studies to recommendations of public health authorities. I have never seen an epidemiologist, virologist, infectious disease specialist, or public health authority claim that cloth masks (or any masks) STOP Covid infection. The initial push for cloth masks was a bottoms-up, public effort that occurred after the CDC recommended cloth barriers as a last ditch measure for hospitals that had run out of PPE.


Not only that, but wasn’t the main idea to mitigate (not stop completely) the wearer’s own transmission via larger droplets, as opposed to stopping anything that was small enough to have already traveled from another person, to the wearer?
The original CDC recommendation to HCW to use a cloth barrier was to protect the HCW from infection via larger droplets. There was lots of discussion about cloth barriers during the period where actual research was being done. Part of that was based on reducing transmission from asymptomatic people who were infected. So, I recall it being proposed that even if cloth barriers were not complete protection for the wearer, they would help reduce droplet transmission from the water. Another rationale I’ve heard is that it reduces touching your face, although I’ve never seen studies that evaluated that.

Regardless, I think the evidence shows that cloth masks provide some reduction of transmission both ways. Surgical masks provide more, especially if the string is knotted using some kind of technique, k95 respirators provide more, and N95, with their dual bands provide the best. All assuming that the masks are worn properly, which includes not wearing them below the nose.
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Gunnar
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Re: From: State of the Pandemic

Post by Gunnar »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 3:15 am
Regardless, I think the evidence shows that cloth masks provide some reduction of transmission both ways. Surgical masks provide more, especially if the string is knotted using some kind of technique, k95 respirators provide more, and N95, with their dual bands provide the best. All assuming that the masks are worn properly, which includes not wearing them below the nose.
That's my understanding too. I prefer the N95 masks, and have found some that are fairly comfortable to wear. Plus they don't fog up my glasses or sunglasses when properly fitted and worn. I find it ludicrous how many people don't seem to realize or care that even with a N95 mask, wearing it below the nose is no better than not wearing a mask at all.
No precept or claim is more suspect or more likely to be false than one that can only be supported by invoking the claim of Divine authority for it--no matter who or what claims such authority.
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Re: From: State of the Pandemic

Post by Res Ipsa »

Hawkeye wrote:
Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:45 pm
That being said, I don't think there's data suggesting that rhinoviruses have ever been the third leading cause of death in the US.
One of the German political parties wants to make a mask mandate this winter for influenza. Do you think people will be able to sue each other for battery because they caught a cold, flu, or COVID from an unmasked individual? And I'm talking about the COVID that now has a 99.97% survival rate for people under 70 yoa.
Who cares whether Germans can sue each other? And why do you keep pretending that death is the only bad effect of the virus when the evidence to the contrary is crystal clear? Of course the virus has a high survival rate if you don’t count the people that it kills.
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Res Ipsa
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Re: From: State of the Pandemic

Post by Res Ipsa »

Gunnar wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 3:33 am
Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 3:15 am
Regardless, I think the evidence shows that cloth masks provide some reduction of transmission both ways. Surgical masks provide more, especially if the string is knotted using some kind of technique, k95 respirators provide more, and N95, with their dual bands provide the best. All assuming that the masks are worn properly, which includes not wearing them below the nose.
That's my understanding too. I prefer the N95 masks, and have found some that are fairly comfortable to wear. Plus they don't fog up my glasses or sunglasses when properly fitted and worn. I find it ludicrous how many people don't seem to realize or care that even with a N95 mask, wearing it below the nose is no better than not wearing a mask at all.
I was sold on 95s when I realized they don’t fog my glasses nearly as much as the K95s.
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Gunnar
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Re: From: State of the Pandemic

Post by Gunnar »

Res Ipsa wrote:
Sat Jul 23, 2022 3:39 am
I was sold on 95s when I realized they don’t fog my glasses nearly as much as the K95s.
Same here!
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Re: From: State of the Pandemic

Post by Hawkeye »

also know that most cloth masks are more prone to fogging up lenses, particularly the mask wearer's own glasses. I hated that about them!
Thank you for admitting that. I don't think the parents of these grade school kids are worried about infecting me with COVID. Why do you think they believe that a cloth mask is doing anything to protect their kid from COVID. Do you think they know what the percentage of young healthy kids who die or suffer permanent disability from COVID is? I'll admit that even my parents were scared of COVID in March 2020. I could have excused people as just being misinformed as we all were initially in March 2020. But now when I see people pulling their shirts or scarfs up to avoid catching COVID it looks about as far from what the science says as it gets. I've been starting my eye exam with feel free to take your mask off to avoid fogging the lenses for over 2 years now. I've noticed a trend of people masking up again.
The masks required by my ophthalmologist were N95 masks, or equivalent, which he provided if the patient didn't bring their own.
The N95s fogged my phoropter something awful as well. Some of that is just the patient not using common sense in knowing that if you forcefully blow your breath at the lens it's going to fog. My older and more decrepit patients couldn't tolerate breathing through an N95 very long. I've seen ophthalmologists far smarter than me who have kicked patients out for pulling their mask below their nose at the phoropter. I think that's irrational and they either believe their own propaganda or perhaps they just don't need the money as badly as I do and didn't want to bother seeing the patient anyway. I'm happy to see antimaskers and have been since I was allowed to go back to work. I haven't had as much as a sniffle nor worried about it a single day.
That is the only kind of mask I wear, though I know even they don't stop 100% of the particles. Besides that, well-designed N95 masks, I found, didn't fog up my glasses when properly worn. Now that I no longer need glasses, that is not so much of an issue with me (except when wearing sunglasses, of course), but I still make it a point to wear N95 masks whenever I need a mask.
Well at least you are informed about masks and what works. But I'm often working with kids and sadly some adults who can't yet grasp the need or perhaps even how to put their foreheads on the band and look through the hole at the chart. They're not going to be willing or able to wear a mask properly to avoid fogging the lens either.
The best part about this is waiting four years to see how all the crazy apocalyptic predictions made by the fear mongering idiots in Right Wing media turned out to be painfully wrong...Gasoline would hit $10/gallon. Hyperinflation would ensue.
Icarus
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