Hawkeye wrote: ↑Wed Aug 03, 2022 4:15 pm
In fact, if you and I put our heads together to try and figure out a common moral codes between us, I’d start with the Bible precisely because I know you consider it authoritative.
Why would I be persuaded by the interpretation of a nonbeliever? If there is no God, no supernatural, no ultimate justice, to me the Bible is just foolishness as Schmo says. The death of Christ makes no sense to me without the resurrection.
Why wouldn’t you? I’ve met believers who know very little about what the Bible actually says and non-believers who who are experts, having read the Bible in Greek. I was raised LDS, so I know the Bible from the perspective of a believer. I don’t have to believe in a divine Jesus to understand the Golden Rule or the parable of the Good Samaritan.
The notion that the Bible is either the word of God or complete foolishness is a fundamental logical fallacy called the fallacy of the excluded middle. Good ideas that can form part of a moral code can be found in lots of books, including the Bible. Don’t you think it kind of weird that I, an atheist, find more intrinsic value in your holy book than you do?
I don’t have to believe that the New Testament it’s an accurate history to agree with you that the crucifixion of Jesus makes no sense without the resurrection. The resurrection is an essential part of the story the New Testament tells. Leaving it out would be like ending the original Star Wars story after The Empire Strikes back. It would make no sense. But that doesn’t make Return of the Jedi factual.
Hawkeye wrote: I am interested in your beliefs and what motivates you to give money to West Virginia drug addicts, unwed mothers, and welfare cases. Many of them share my DNA but it was never a part of our culture to enable behavior like this. When I see bums on the street I give them a card to Ranstad Temp agency.
I didn’t say I did that. You claimed you were working yourself into bankruptcy for Schmo’s people but that he wouldn’t do the same for yours. I assumed you were doing your usually posting and moaning about taxes. I simply pointed out that I pay taxes, just like you do, and expressed my belief that the government should help those in need, whether you considered them Schmo’s people or your people.
But see what you did to your fellow human beings there? You othered them. You labeled them in a way that lets you think of them as less human than you are. The most important thing is that those folks are your fellow humans. You share their DNA — close to 100% of it. So, who you are really talking about is a fellow human who is addicted to drugs, a fellow human who cares for a child without a husband, and a fellow human who receives temporary monetary help, primarily to house and feed her children.
And, yes, I don’t mind in the slightest paying taxes to help my fellow humans overcome his addiction, make sure their children have enough to eat and a safe place to stay, and have enough food and safe shelter for themselves. I don’t begrudge that in the slightest. And I don’t care what color their skin is, what state they live in, whether they’re urban or rural, or whether they are POF or atheists.
I hear Jesus told the poor to “get a job, ya’ bum “ too.
Res Ipsa wrote:Society has set up a system through which you don’t have to.
Hawkeye wrote: I think I should have the right to voluntarily opt out of the that system. Would it be within your moral code to kill me to keep me from opting out of that system? That sounds a lot like slavery doesn't it? It sure isn't freedom.
Well you have the right to opt out of the system that your fellow Americans and fellow citizens of your state have adopted. Just relocate to a different country. Find yourself a Paleo Libertarian or AnarcoCapitalist utopia and bask in the freedom they offer.
But you shouldn’t have right to enjoy the whole system of public goods while not paying your share. Payment for public goods comes with an enormous financial incentive for individual to free ride of the backs of everyone else. So, we all kick in or have no government financed roads, police, jails, ports, infrastructure, courts, etc. If you don’t want to be part of society, including the costs of belonging to that society, your remedy is to go elsewhere. (Assuming, of course, that your perfect utopia has open borders.)
Or, you can try to persuade your fellow citizens that the public should not provide the services that you don’t want to pay for. In this society, that’s also an option you have. But it’s not guaranteed to work.
What? Kill you for refusing to pay your taxes? Hell no. Why would I do that?
As for slavery, here’s what it actually looks like. I send a few grand to Doc, and then I own you, your wife, and your kids. I sell your kids to Marcus and you never see them again. I have sex with your wife and you can’t do a damn thing about it. You have to do whatever work I give you, and if you refuse, I have you whipped until you almost die. I don’t pay you one red cent for your labor. You eat what I choose to give you and wear what I choose to give you. I never have to give you a day off. You only get to leave my property when I allow it, and you can only go where I allow you to go. And if you try to escape, I or anyone else can shoot you without consequence. You are not human — you are property, just like my car, my shoes, or my toilet seat. And I can do with you as I choose.
So, naw, paying taxes sounds nothing like slavery to me.