Generation X's Method of Parenting

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Some Schmo
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Generation X's Method of Parenting

Post by Some Schmo »

My daughter is now a young adult, and I have to admit that I'm starting to recognize where my best-intentioned strategies for parenting may have been a disservice to her.

Let's start with a simple one: access to money. I grew up in a low-income family (given the size of it), and my daughter did not. As my access to cash grew, it seemed natural to me to share the increases with my family. From the time she was born till she was about 8-9, we literally spoiled her. I say "literally" because I started to notice from her around the time she was eight or nine an attitude of expectation, which quickly turned into entitlement. I think there are more factors to that sense of entitlement than just the fact that we gave her so much (like, the way were were constantly reinforcing how innately special she was), but I have no doubt that showering her with gifts led to that unhealthy attitude.

Contrast that with how I was raised. Whenever I got a gift from my parents, it was a huge deal. I felt really lucky for a day. The vast majority of the "fun" stuff I wanted as a kid were things I never got or only had access to via a friend. I was left wanting. If I wanted something badly enough, I would look for ways to make money and start saving. All my daughter had to do was express a mild interest in that thing and it would eventually show up in the house. We were terrible parents that way. In fact, I remember there was this brand of stuffed animal that had hundreds of characters, and I found myself "collecting" them on her behalf. She had my collection of teddy bears.

I want to go back to the note I made about constantly reinforcing how innately special she was. I think this is something somewhat unique to my generation that changed our view of parenting: the proliferation (i. e. fad) of self-help books and gurus. I was heavily into those in my late teens/early twenties. It felt like I was teaching myself what I thought my parents should have taught me. So, as a consequence, I imagined that I would be a much better parent by not making the same mistakes my parents made. I constantly tried to reinforce positive beliefs. The problem I didn't recognize is that the self-help books in those days taught us to "believe something about yourself until it manifests and becomes true." Essentially, their advice was to keep lying to yourself until you turn into the thing you've been lying about all this time. The problem is that it's not a long-lasting solution (you might start feeling confident for a while after pumping yourself up on possibilities, but life has a way of reminding you of certain truths). I suppose I'm realizing that the low-grade depression I would feel after my real-life started reasserting itself again after being all pumped up and super motivated is the same depression I'd be giving my daughter when I made her believe she was innately special, but life wasn't comporting with that belief.

And, of course, like many other parents of young children in the late 90's/early 2000's, I never let my kid go outside alone. This is amazing to me in hindsight, and likely my biggest regret. OMG, she might get kidnapped! The reason this is amazing to me is my own childhood experience should have taught me that strangers with candy rarely happens! It never happened to me, or anyone I knew. Of course, I knew it could happen, but didn't have the ability to weigh its actual scale. Just the thought that it could happen made me want to mitigate it from ever happening. This all seems crazy now, considering I remember walking to the local convenience store several blocks away when I was 4, put in charge of my younger brother age 2!

As a result of the constant "protection," I get the sense that my wife and I have compromised our daughter's emotional immunity. The things she finds tragic, life-changing, dramatic, etc. are the kinds of things my generation considered annoyances. I don't think we raised her with enough resistance, enough challenges, or enough opportunities to solve problems on her own.

I have framed all this in the context of my own experience parenting, but I'm really talking about a generational trend here. I think Gen X and Millennial methods of parenting have led to the high levels of depression and anxiety we see in college students today, and I think it's because were were too nice to them in order to avoid being the "mean" parents we perceived ours to be. The easiest way to notice this manifesting is in all the attention we seem to spend these days on "offending people." When I was a kid, offending someone was not much of an offence. Most people intuited, "That's your problem, not mine."

These days, not only do we listen to people when they tell us one thing or another offends them, we actually honor it, devoid of any consideration of the speaker's intent. Young people today are "triggered" just by hearing certain key words. Context is irrelevant. The whole uproar over Dave Chappell and trans people goes away if you consider the context honestly. I know this, because I watched the special, and then read several articles criticizing it, and all I can say is that it seems we watched different shows. The show I watched seem to be in full support of trans people. It's as though you can't make a joke about a disenfranchised group, because to do so requires you to say the name of the disenfranchised group, and just hearing those words is enough to trigger certain folks no matter what the context is. This is like it being offensive to joke about my wife; I can't do that if I assert that "I support and love her."

I'm sure social media is partly to blame, and I have a feeling that a cultural shift will occur at some time down the line when parents stop giving their kids access to a computer/cell phone until they're adults and can handle it. But that's a whole other topic (it might be the other side of the same coin).

tl;dr: I think the Gen X and Millennial generations' methods of parenting are largely to blame for the children now entering adulthood who are seemingly ill-equipped for life's challenges.
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Re: Generation X's Method of Parenting

Post by Xenophon »

Thanks for opening up a dialogue, Schmo. I don't want to spend too much time deconstructing your thoughts on your own child and parenting. I lack the hubris to think I could know about that relationship and dynamic better than you could. That said I do want to dive a bit deeper into some of your larger generalities about this upcoming generation.

First, I think it important to note that as long as there have been generational gaps there have been complaints about those gaps, and they often look very similar across the years. I doubt there has ever been a generation that thought the upcoming crew was well prepared for the world that lay before them and that those young whippersnappers are going about life the way they should.

Where you see an age group that is too concerned about offending others, I see a world where the marginalized might finally be able to have a voice, to not be pushed to the edges of society or swept under the rugs. I see a generation that not only embraces the differences among individuals but celebrates them, often loudly. Can they take that feeling too far at times? Absolutely, but that is the way of cultural pendulum swings. We spent far too much time not concerning ourselves with how our actions and words impact those around us. I doubt any of us is immune to cringing at our past language choices, I know I'm sure not. The terrible news is they'll likely suffer from the same problem and I'm not out of the woods yet.

I'm also amused at any indication that this generation is more easily offended or upset than older ones... have you ever seen a zoomer hit an older person with "ok boomer" or "karen". For me, most of the over-the-top meltdowns over language I've seen were from the privileged getting called to the carpet for their bad behavior. That is a problem that transcends generations, entitled fools have always been the quickest to rage.

Are there elements of speech suppression on college campus? Absolutely, but often as not when I dig into that the pushback is generally a very vocal minority or often propped up by faculty. Sure, folks like Chappelle catch heat for saying things, he's also made a career of being controversial so I'm not sweating bullets for him here. He still has Netflix specials and booked shows and some fat stacks of cash so he isn't exactly a repressed voice. I agree that the better approach is to combat these ideas we don't like, not shout them down. I just don't view that as inherently tied to age but more a byproduct of an increasingly partisan society. How can we fault kids for failing to listen to dissenting voices when we've barely got a civil servant that can do it? Hell, the vast majority of posters on this board wouldn't qualify as "young generation" (message boards are so '99) and we still deal with some of the same problems. (As an aside, I think this ties back to your other thread about writing off those bad faith debaters from the outset. If the group that called for cancelling{insert hot topic person} views him as participating in bad faith wouldn't they be justified in their actions given some of your previous reasoning? Wouldn't they be "smarter" for not debating him and instead just shutting him down?)

Instead what I see in this upcoming group is a set of folks that will stand up for what they believe in and they're often willing to sacrifice quite a bit in that pursuit. They won't just idly sit by and watch what they view as terrible stuff; climate change, war, famine, racism. They are pretty good at voting with their wallets. They're tired of being a piece of a system that doesn't value them as humans and they seek to change that. They're tired of stigmas existing around things that shouldn't have them, like fair wage discussion and mental health services. I'm almost concerned the youth are TOO self-aware.

The deck is certainly not stacked in their favor and I'm not sure they'll be any more successful than we were at changing the world but I see so much good and positive in them and that alone brings me hope. But younger genes are not the answer to the problem, or the root of it. It goes back to the very simple principle of working on building the world we wish to see around us, and that is work that doesn't stop regardless of age.

All that to leave you with a picture:
Parenting.png
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Re: Generation X's Method of Parenting

Post by Vēritās »

Some Schmo wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 7:08 pm
My daughter is now a young adult, and I have to admit that I'm starting to recognize where my best-intentioned strategies for parenting may have been a disservice to her.

Let's start with a simple one: access to money. I grew up in a low-income family (given the size of it), and my daughter did not. As my access to cash grew, it seemed natural to me to share the increases with my family. From the time she was born till she was about 8-9, we literally spoiled her. I say "literally" because I started to notice from her around the time she was eight or nine an attitude of expectation, which quickly turned into entitlement. I think there are more factors to that sense of entitlement than just the fact that we gave her so much (like, the way were were constantly reinforcing how innately special she was), but I have no doubt that showering her with gifts led to that unhealthy attitude.

Contrast that with how I was raised. Whenever I got a gift from my parents, it was a huge deal. I felt really lucky for a day. The vast majority of the "fun" stuff I wanted as a kid were things I never got or only had access to via a friend. I was left wanting. If I wanted something badly enough, I would look for ways to make money and start saving. All my daughter had to do was express a mild interest in that thing and it would eventually show up in the house. We were terrible parents that way. In fact, I remember there was this brand of stuffed animal that had hundreds of characters, and I found myself "collecting" them on her behalf. She had my collection of teddy bears.

I want to go back to the note I made about constantly reinforcing how innately special she was. I think this is something somewhat unique to my generation that changed our view of parenting: the proliferation (i. e. fad) of self-help books and gurus. I was heavily into those in my late teens/early twenties. It felt like I was teaching myself what I thought my parents should have taught me. So, as a consequence, I imagined that I would be a much better parent by not making the same mistakes my parents made. I constantly tried to reinforce positive beliefs. The problem I didn't recognize is that the self-help books in those days taught us to "believe something about yourself until it manifests and becomes true." Essentially, their advice was to keep lying to yourself until you turn into the thing you've been lying about all this time. The problem is that it's not a long-lasting solution (you might start feeling confident for a while after pumping yourself up on possibilities, but life has a way of reminding you of certain truths). I suppose I'm realizing that the low-grade depression I would feel after my real-life started reasserting itself again after being all pumped up and super motivated is the same depression I'd be giving my daughter when I made her believe she was innately special, but life wasn't comporting with that belief.
I'm right there with you buddy. My daughter turned 18 in July and yesterday she started her first day of college. My wife and I have been mulling over the idea as to whether or not we spoiled her too much. We never showered her with constant praise but she pretty much got anything she wanted for her birthday or Christmas, and in the case of her 17th birthday, I surprised her with a brand new Tesla Model 3. She wasn't asking for a car or even expecting it but she is an honor roll student who got a full ride scholarship to college so I wanted to do something special for her. I told my 15 year old boy that if he graduates with similar grades he can expect the same treatment.

Our biggest concern with Jessica is that her best friend isn't the best role model. She is so unlike her in so many ways we're stunned that they hang out so much as they do. Occasionally my wife will be upset because Jessica talks back to her and then my wife blames her attitude on her girlfriend thinking she influences her to respond in certain ways because she lives with a step-mom she hates and doesn't respect. Anyway, on the whole I think our worries about spoiling her are overblown because she does seem to be making all the right choices, aside from her associations. Her friend wanted her to move out and help her pay rent in an apartment with other girls and she said why would I do that when I can go to college and still live at my house for free? Duh. No brainer, but not a decision other girls that age are making.
And, of course, like many other parents of young children in the late 90's/early 2000's, I never let my kid go outside alone. This is amazing to me in hindsight, and likely my biggest regret. OMG, she might get kidnapped! The reason this is amazing to me is my own childhood experience should have taught me that strangers with candy rarely happens!
Yes, I was like that when my kids were 5 and 3 but believe it or not, it was a thread on this very forum that changed my mind about it. Jersey Girl might remember it, but it was a discussion about "free range parenting" and how studies have shown it benefits a child's overall development. Ever since then I gradually moved away from being a "helicopter parent" and started allowing my kids to wander down the street on their own without supervision. My daughter has been going places alone and with her friends ever since she's been able to drive and my 15 year old son rides his electric bike 3 miles to work and usually comes home after 11pm.
It never happened to me, or anyone I knew. Of course, I knew it could happen, but didn't have the ability to weigh its actual scale. Just the thought that it could happen made me want to mitigate it from ever happening. This all seems crazy now, considering I remember walking to the local convenience store several blocks away when I was 4, put in charge of my younger brother age 2!
LOL. Yes, when I was 13 I had to take care of my 11 year old brother and 9 year old sister when we got off the bus from school. We were alone for 2-4 hours before my mom came home from work and every day we had chores to finish. I was usually charged with the responsibility of grilling dinner and having it hot and ready by the time she got home.
As a result of the constant "protection," I get the sense that my wife and I have compromised our daughter's emotional immunity.
I wouldn't worry about it too much. I think she will develop those things in due time, just in a setting that is different from our own.
The things she finds tragic, life-changing, dramatic, etc. are the kinds of things my generation considered annoyances. I don't think we raised her with enough resistance, enough challenges, or enough opportunities to solve problems on her own.
One thing that bothered me was the problem solving aspect, and lately I've been trying to pound this home in both of my teens. My daughter is having questions about how the college gets the funding from her scholarship and she comes to me expecting me to figure it out. I tell her to go to the financial aid office and ask them to explain it to her. My son calls me saying he can't get to work because his bike got a flat tire. I tell him at some point he needs to figure out solutions on his own. He can either borrow a pump from a neighbor, or he can leave earlier and walk to work.
I have framed all this in the context of my own experience parenting, but I'm really talking about a generational trend here. I think Gen X and Millennial methods of parenting have led to the high levels of depression and anxiety we see in college students today
This might be true, but I'm inclined to doubt it. We used to think our son was depressed and such because he was always playing on his video games and sleeping in a lot. But over the summer I would hear him at 2, 3 or 4 in the morning laughing his ass off. I'd go in there and see that he is socializing with real people with his headphones and they're all playing games together. I never objected to any of this because I like seeing my son laughing and having a good time. It reminds me of when we first got a Franklin ACE 1000 Computer in 1982 and all the kids in the neighborhood came over to play games because at the time, it was the most technologically fascinating thing kids our age had seen. The main difference is that Xander is interacting with people online, but today's technology allows them to do so freely online with webcams, so it isn't entirely unlike a normal relationship with people in the same room. In fact, one girl in his gaming group had been talkin to him for so long that my wife invited her to come visit. She lives in Mississippi.
I think it's because were were too nice to them in order to avoid being the "mean" parents we perceived ours to be.
That's likely true. I promised myself a long time ago, for example, that I would never allow myself to be like my parents for similar reasons. Either of them. I've never spanked any of my kids, for example. I try not to neglect them in ways I believe I was neglected. And every once in a while you come across some old school parent who sees this and starts criticizing you and warning you about how you're going to spoil them. I think a lot of that is biblical horse crap. "Spare the rod spoil the child."
These days, not only do we listen to people when they tell us one thing or another offends them, we actually honor it, devoid of any consideration of the speaker's intent. Young people today are "triggered" just by hearing certain key words. Context is irrelevant. The whole uproar over Dave Chappell and trans people goes away if you consider the context honestly. I know this, because I watched the special, and then read several articles criticizing it, and all I can say is that it seems we watched different shows. The show I watched seem to be in full support of trans people. It's as though you can't make a joke about a disenfranchised group, because to do so requires you to say the name of the disenfranchised group, and just hearing those words is enough to trigger certain folks no matter what the context is. This is like it being offensive to joke about my wife; I can't do that if I assert that "I support and love her."
This reminds of of Dennis Miller back in the 90's mocking gay people which at the time was taboo. He responded in one of his standup shows, "No, I'm actually being inclusive. Not to mock them means I don't think they're like everyone else. No, come play in our reindeer games."

There is always going to be a disconnect there until society has truly accepted and tolerated people who are different, but I'm not too worried about it.
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Re: Generation X's Method of Parenting

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I mean, if your kid is a decent human being, adaptable, and has a good head on her shoulders - meaning she has good growth potential because she’s not an incurious crouton - then you rocked it fellow GenX’er. My two kids have bought homes, are genuinely decent and good-hearted, have careers, etc etc. They may not be exactly what I want them to be, but that’s a me problem, not a them problem. They’re great, so far.

Have faith in yourself and your wife. I bet your kid is turning out, and will continue to turn out, great. Now go buy her a 2022 Tesla Model X Plaid.

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Re: Generation X's Method of Parenting

Post by Some Schmo »

Xenophon wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:22 pm
First, I think it important to note that as long as there have been generational gaps there have been complaints about those gaps, and they often look very similar across the years. I doubt there has ever been a generation that thought the upcoming crew was well prepared for the world that lay before them and that those young whippersnappers are going about life the way they should.
Absolutely. In fact, I was thinking about titles for this thread that expressed that sentiment. Something like, "Gen X's Version of 'Back in my day...'" But that would be a thread criticizing young people, and I wanted to talk about the parenting I think contributed to the way they are.
Where you see an age group that is too concerned about offending others, I see a world where the marginalized might finally be able to have a voice, to not be pushed to the edges of society or swept under the rugs. I see a generation that not only embraces the differences among individuals but celebrates them, often loudly. Can they take that feeling too far at times? Absolutely, but that is the way of cultural pendulum swings. We spent far too much time not concerning ourselves with how our actions and words impact those around us. I doubt any of us is immune to cringing at our past language choices, I know I'm sure not. The terrible news is they'll likely suffer from the same problem and I'm not out of the woods yet.

I'm also amused at any indication that this generation is more easily offended or upset than older ones... have you ever seen a zoomer hit an older person with "ok boomer" or "karen". For me, most of the over-the-top meltdowns over language I've seen were from the privileged getting called to the carpet for their bad behavior. That is a problem that transcends generations, entitled fools have always been the quickest to rage.
Certainly, every generation has individuals who get more upset when they are offended than others. And I believe you've identified the good intentions behind this trend, but I guess I come down on, "in this generation, that pendulum has swung way too far and it's likely to come back much faster given how far it's swung." Open racism in the Trump age might be an example of it coming back too quickly (in one demographic, at least).
Are there elements of speech suppression on college campus? Absolutely, but often as not when I dig into that the pushback is generally a very vocal minority or often propped up by faculty. Sure, folks like Chappelle catch heat for saying things, he's also made a career of being controversial so I'm not sweating bullets for him here. He still has Netflix specials and booked shows and some fat stacks of cash so he isn't exactly a repressed voice. I agree that the better approach is to combat these ideas we don't like, not shout them down. I just don't view that as inherently tied to age but more a byproduct of an increasingly partisan society. How can we fault kids for failing to listen to dissenting voices when we've barely got a civil servant that can do it? Hell, the vast majority of posters on this board wouldn't qualify as "young generation" (message boards are so '99) and we still deal with some of the same problems.
I don't sympathize with Chappelle from a monetary or "cancel culture" perspective. I used that example because it seemed to me to be a blatant example of where an outrage occurred because the context wasn't considered. And I'm happy Netflix didn't bend to the wishes of that minority mob.

I don't think it's tied to age; I think it's a product of this generation's culture. Of course, the generation is tied to an age, but their culture doesn't necessarily have to be.
(As an aside, I think this ties back to your other thread about writing off those bad faith debaters from the outset. If the group that called for cancelling{insert hot topic person} views him as participating in bad faith wouldn't they be justified in their actions given some of your previous reasoning? Wouldn't they be "smarter" for not debating him and instead just shutting him down?)
Well, I have a quibble with your wording primarily because it slightly misrepresents what I was saying. I never said you should write off bad faith debaters from the outset. There's no way to determine if they're bad faith arguers unless you have the experience of getting bad faith arguments from them repetitively.

As I mentioned, I'm not saying you should stop debating people with whom you disagree; in fact, I highly encourage it. I'm saying you should stop attempting to engage bad faith arguers once you realize their pattern of nonengagement, because of the opportunity cost (and because simply engaging them is all they're really looking for).
Instead what I see in this upcoming group is a set of folks that will stand up for what they believe in and they're often willing to sacrifice quite a bit in that pursuit. They won't just idly sit by and watch what they view as terrible stuff; climate change, war, famine, racism. They are pretty good at voting with their wallets. They're tired of being a piece of a system that doesn't value them as humans and they seek to change that. They're tired of stigmas existing around things that shouldn't have them, like fair wage discussion and mental health services. I'm almost concerned the youth are TOO self-aware.

The deck is certainly not stacked in their favor and I'm not sure they'll be any more successful than we were at changing the world but I see so much good and positive in them and that alone brings me hope. But younger genes are not the answer to the problem, or the root of it. It goes back to the very simple principle of working on building the world we wish to see around us, and that is work that doesn't stop regardless of age.
No doubt, and I've thought about this contradiction quite a bit. So yeah, this is a good reason to lighten up on them a bit, although this thread really isn't a criticism of the current generation, it's a criticism of my own generation.
All that to leave you with a picture: Parenting.png
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Re: Generation X's Method of Parenting

Post by Some Schmo »

Vēritās wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:29 pm
I'm right there with you buddy. My daughter turned 18 in July and yesterday she started her first day of college. My wife and I have been mulling over the idea as to whether or not we spoiled her too much. We never showered her with constant praise but she pretty much got anything she wanted for her birthday or Christmas, and in the case of her 17th birthday, I surprised her with a brand new Tesla Model 3. She wasn't asking for a car or even expecting it but she is an honor roll student who got a full ride scholarship to college so I wanted to do something special for her. I told my 15 year old boy that if he graduates with similar grades he can expect the same treatment.
Yeah, you bring up something that I consider an ongoing battle. You want to reward you kids for their accomplishments, but what is the appropriate reward, and which accomplishments are worth rewarding?
Our biggest concern with Jessica is that her best friend isn't the best role model. She is so unlike her in so many ways we're stunned that they hang out so much as they do. Occasionally my wife will be upset because Jessica talks back to her and then my wife blames her attitude on her girlfriend thinking she influences her to respond in certain ways because she lives with a step-mom she hates and doesn't respect. Anyway, on the whole I think our worries about spoiling her are overblown because she does seem to be making all the right choices, aside from her associations. Her friend wanted her to move out and help her pay rent in an apartment with other girls and she said why would I do that when I can go to college and still live at my house for free? Duh. No brainer, but not a decision other girls that age are making.
I've had this problem with my daughter too. Let me try to reassure you this time: she will likely see what you see in time. My daughter always seems to come around on... let's say, non-optimal friendships.
Yes, I was like that when my kids were 5 and 3 but believe it or not, it was a thread on this very forum that changed my mind about it. Jersey Girl might remember it, but it was a discussion about "free range parenting" and how studies have shown it benefits a child's overall development. Ever since then I gradually moved away from being a "helicopter parent" and started allowing my kids to wander down the street on their own without supervision. My daughter has been going places alone and with her friends ever since she's been able to drive and my 15 year old son rides his electric bike 3 miles to work and usually comes home after 11pm.
Man, I wish I engaged in that thread back when it was new. Of course, it's not just tension with my own sense of my daughter's safety; there's also tension with my wife's sense of my daughter's safety. I imagine it's much harder for women (on average) to "let go" of their children than men.
LOL. Yes, when I was 13 I had to take care of my 11 year old brother and 9 year old sister when we got off the bus from school. We were alone for 2-4 hours before my mom came home from work and every day we had chores to finish. I was usually charged with the responsibility of grilling dinner and having it hot and ready by the time she got home.
Oh man, this is one I left out... the whole philosophy on assigning your children "chores."
I wouldn't worry about it too much. I think she will develop those things in due time, just in a setting that is different from our own.
I honestly appreciate this reassurance. I want to believe you're right, and frankly, the signs are certainly there. She gets better every week, it seems.
One thing that bothered me was the problem solving aspect, and lately I've been trying to pound this home in both of my teens. My daughter is having questions about how the college gets the funding from her scholarship and she comes to me expecting me to figure it out. I tell her to go to the financial aid office and ask them to explain it to her. My son calls me saying he can't get to work because his bike got a flat tire. I tell him at some point he needs to figure out solutions on his own. He can either borrow a pump from a neighbor, or he can leave earlier and walk to work.
Yes. I have had the same experience.
I have framed all this in the context of my own experience parenting, but I'm really talking about a generational trend here. I think Gen X and Millennial methods of parenting have led to the high levels of depression and anxiety we see in college students today
This might be true, but I'm inclined to doubt it. We used to think our son was depressed and such because he was always playing on his video games and sleeping in a lot. But over the summer I would hear him at 2, 3 or 4 in the morning laughing his ass off. I'd go in there and see that he is socializing with real people with his headphones and they're all playing games together. I never objected to any of this because I like seeing my son laughing and having a good time. It reminds me of when we first got a Franklin ACE 1000 Computer in 1982 and all the kids in the neighborhood came over to play games because at the time, it was the most technologically fascinating thing kids our age had seen. The main difference is that Xander is interacting with people online, but today's technology allows them to do so freely online with webcams, so it isn't entirely unlike a normal relationship with people in the same room. In fact, one girl in his gaming group had been talkin to him for so long that my wife invited her to come visit. She lives in Mississippi.
Statistically speaking, the current levels of anxiety and depression (according to Jonathon Haidt) are ticking up much faster in girls than in boys in the last 8 years or so. He thinks it's mostly to do with social media, and that may be true, but I think a lot of it has to do with isolation affecting girls harder than boys. But of course, that's pulled right out of my intuition ass.
I think it's because were were too nice to them in order to avoid being the "mean" parents we perceived ours to be.
That's likely true. I promised myself a long time ago, for example, that I would never allow myself to be like my parents for similar reasons. Either of them. I've never spanked any of my kids, for example. I try not to neglect them in ways I believe I was neglected. And every once in a while you come across some old school parent who sees this and starts criticizing you and warning you about how you're going to spoil them. I think a lot of that is biblical horse crap. "Spare the rod spoil the child."
I spanked my daughter once, and oh... my... goodness. Remember when your parents said, "This is going to hurt me a lot more than it's going to hurt you" and you always thought it was a lie? Well, it wasn't for me that day. There are few things I regret more in my life than the day I thought physically punishing my daughter was the right thing to do. I smacked her butt once and immediately, in that moment, just about lost my mind. She didn't cry; she just looked at me confused. That look still hurts my heart.
This reminds of of Dennis Miller back in the 90's mocking gay people which at the time was taboo. He responded in one of his standup shows, "No, I'm actually being inclusive. Not to mock them means I don't think they're like everyone else. No, come play in our reindeer games."

There is always going to be a disconnect there until society has truly accepted and tolerated people who are different, but I'm not too worried about it.
You know what's interesting about that Miller quote? Back when he said it, I likely would have balked. Today, I think it is pure wisdom.

I watched a black woman give a Ted Talk about how white people talk about racism (and she included white people who are allies in the fight for equality) and my biggest takeaway from it was that not acknowledging that someone is black/Asian/Hispanic or whatever is getting in the way of improving race relations. I had it in my head that we wanted to treat everyone equally (and we do). What I didn't realize is that I thought that meant treating everyone like white people are treated and being "color-blind" (not what we want to do). Inclusiveness is about recognizing our differences and embracing/celebrating them.

It seems to me that real racism and bigotry is all about having and acting on bad assumptions. Anyway... off topic.

Thanks for your comments, Kevin.
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Re: Generation X's Method of Parenting

Post by Some Schmo »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 8:43 pm
I mean, if your kid is a decent human being, adaptable, and has a good head on her shoulders - meaning she has good growth potential because she’s not an incurious crouton - then you rocked it fellow GenX’er. My two kids have bought homes, are genuinely decent and good-hearted, have careers, etc etc. They may not be exactly what I want them to be, but that’s a me problem, not a them problem. They’re great, so far.

Have faith in yourself and your wife. I bet your kid is turning out, and will continue to turn out, great. Now go buy her a 2022 Tesla Model X Plaid.

- Doc
Thanks man.

See, this is the exact reason you start a discussion. Talking to others helps alleviate your negative biases.
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Re: Generation X's Method of Parenting

Post by Xenophon »

Good thoughts Schmo, my apologies if in my haste to post I made it seem like we are very far apart. We've been posting together long enough for me to know we're likely closer than we are far here.
Some Schmo wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:14 pm
Absolutely. In fact, I was thinking about titles for this thread that expressed that sentiment. Something like, "Gen X's Version of 'Back in my day...'" But that would be a thread criticizing young people, and I wanted to talk about the parenting I think contributed to the way they are.
Distinction noted, apologies if I missed the mark in my reply. It is likely my own biases but I'm generally hard pressed to read any criticism of how a generation was raised as not being at least a passive dig at said generation. After all if you raised them perfectly they'd be "perfect" and there would be nothing to discuss.
Some Schmo wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:14 pm
Certainly, every generation has individuals who get more upset when they are offended than others. And I believe you've identified the good intentions behind this trend, but I guess I come down on, "in this generation, that pendulum has swung way too far and it's likely to come back much faster given how far it's swung." Open racism in the Trump age might be an example of it coming back too quickly (in one demographic, at least).
I view the interaction as entirely reversed. The open racism that slaps you in the face has existed much longer than this group of rebels has been alive. Their "wokeness" is a reaction to what they view as injustice, not the other way around. Sure some folks will then lean in harder to the racism but I'm not entirely sure that means the initial pushback was wrong. Even the oldest of my 2 was only 14 when birtherism was all the rage so I'm not surprised that rejecting that behavior became a key part of their worldview.
Some Schmo wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:14 pm
I don't sympathize with Chappelle from a monetary or "cancel culture" perspective. I used that example because it seemed to me to be a blatant example of where an outrage occurred because the context wasn't considered. And I'm happy Netflix didn't bend to the wishes of that minority mob.

I don't think it's tied to age; I think it's a product of this generation's culture. Of course, the generation is tied to an age, but their culture doesn't necessarily have to be.
I don't think generational culture is that easily separated but then that may be us saying the same thing.

Some Schmo wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:14 pm
Well, I have a quibble with your wording primarily because it slightly misrepresents what I was saying. I never said you should write off bad faith debaters from the outset. There's no way to determine if they're bad faith arguers unless you have the experience of getting bad faith arguments from them repetitively.

As I mentioned, I'm not saying you should stop debating people with whom you disagree; in fact, I highly encourage it. I'm saying you should stop attempting to engage bad faith arguers once you realize their pattern of nonengagement, because of the opportunity cost (and because simply engaging them is all they're really looking for).
A very fair quibble. I tried to get to my point quickly and caricatured your position in the process. Apologies for that.

The point I was going for was that I can see how one might start with your position and run it to the natural conclusion of something along the lines of: "No we shouldn't allow a holocaust denier to speak here" which is the most obvious college cancel culture example I have. When the judge for bad faith acting is arbitrary it results in arbitrary censoring. Which is why I typically default towards letting everyone to the table and you win the minds of others through reason. You'll lose some along the way but your principles remain in place.
No doubt, and I've thought about this contradiction quite a bit. So yeah, this is a good reason to lighten up on them a bit, although this thread really isn't a criticism of the current generation, it's a criticism of my own generation.
I think it is fair to cut yourself the same slack. Every generation goofs their kids up (I think mine and older folks general rejection of mental health support being a critical example), I suspect you were operating with the best of intentions with the best set of information you had available to you. At the end of the day if your child feels loved and supported and isn't committing crimes you're probably okay. The great news for us both is our journey with them isn't over.

I've shared some of this before but for further context. We gained guardianship of SO's two youngest when we got married which means I missed a lot of their formative years. I was also still pretty young and dumb myself and now we had 2 young and dumb ones as well. I definitely didn't get everything right and I'm still trying with them as they enter adulthood and become parents of their own. I still look for moments to learn from them and to teach where I can, I'm not sure there is anything more that we can ask of ourselves.
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Re: Generation X's Method of Parenting

Post by Some Schmo »

Xenophon wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:58 pm
Good thoughts Schmo, my apologies if in my haste to post I made it seem like we are very far apart. We've been posting together long enough for me to know we're likely closer than we are far here.
Some Schmo wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:14 pm
Absolutely. In fact, I was thinking about titles for this thread that expressed that sentiment. Something like, "Gen X's Version of 'Back in my day...'" But that would be a thread criticizing young people, and I wanted to talk about the parenting I think contributed to the way they are.
Distinction noted, apologies if I missed the mark in my reply. It is likely my own biases but I'm generally hard pressed to read any criticism of how a generation was raised as not being at least a passive dig at said generation. After all if you raised them perfectly they'd be "perfect" and there would be nothing to discuss.
Yep, that last sentence is the key. Your criticism is absolutely valid.

And no worries. When I read what you said, I had the same thought I've had a million times reading people's posts here: I should have been more clear about that.
Some Schmo wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:14 pm
Certainly, every generation has individuals who get more upset when they are offended than others. And I believe you've identified the good intentions behind this trend, but I guess I come down on, "in this generation, that pendulum has swung way too far and it's likely to come back much faster given how far it's swung." Open racism in the Trump age might be an example of it coming back too quickly (in one demographic, at least).
I view the interaction as entirely reversed. The open racism that slaps you in the face has existed much longer than this group of rebels has been alive. Their "wokeness" is a reaction to what they view as injustice, not the other way around. Sure some folks will then lean in harder to the racism but I'm not entirely sure that means the initial pushback was wrong. Even the oldest of my 2 was only 14 when birtherism was all the rage so I'm not surprised that rejecting that behavior became a key part of their worldview.
Hmmm. Great observation about the timing of birtherism.

And you're right; I think we're closer than things might appear. Just taking the pendulum analogy to it's full extent, I was thinking of this thing going both ways in a cycle. Course, the analogy fails somewhat because the focal point of a pendulum is stationary, not a moving thing like it is in culture. Hopefully the cultural focal point is moving in the direction of progress as it swings back and forth.

I understand why you see it that way.
Some Schmo wrote:
Tue Aug 16, 2022 9:14 pm
Well, I have a quibble with your wording primarily because it slightly misrepresents what I was saying. I never said you should write off bad faith debaters from the outset. There's no way to determine if they're bad faith arguers unless you have the experience of getting bad faith arguments from them repetitively.

As I mentioned, I'm not saying you should stop debating people with whom you disagree; in fact, I highly encourage it. I'm saying you should stop attempting to engage bad faith arguers once you realize their pattern of nonengagement, because of the opportunity cost (and because simply engaging them is all they're really looking for).
A very fair quibble. I tried to get to my point quickly and caricatured your position in the process. Apologies for that.

The point I was going for was that I can see how one might start with your position and run it to the natural conclusion of something along the lines of: "No we shouldn't allow a holocaust denier to speak here" which is the most obvious college cancel culture example I have. When the judge for bad faith acting is arbitrary it results in arbitrary censoring. Which is why I typically default towards letting everyone to the table and you win the minds of others through reason. You'll lose some along the way but your principles remain in place.
Since we discussed this yesterday, I've been thinking about this exact thing. I agree; my argument, taken to its extreme, ends up exactly as you described.

So, I guess I have a couple thoughts on that as I digest it (I should probably do this in the other thread, but I'll be brief). One is, I should say that I'm making a distinction between your own personal behavior vs. what you recommend to a group in a public setting. So, I don't have to personally debate someone with whom I've found it fruitless in the past, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't give everyone else the same opportunity to find that out for themselves. You should. It's just that thread was directed at my friends here who often entertain outrageous claims from people we all can be pretty confident aren't here for honest debate. I'm thinking... you guys gotta know this!

And now that I've just typed all that out, I realized that I'm making a judgment on your behalf, and that's where I go wrong. Now I just net out that, what's good for me is good for me.
No doubt, and I've thought about this contradiction quite a bit. So yeah, this is a good reason to lighten up on them a bit, although this thread really isn't a criticism of the current generation, it's a criticism of my own generation.
I think it is fair to cut yourself the same slack. Every generation goofs their kids up (I think mine and older folks general rejection of mental health support being a critical example), I suspect you were operating with the best of intentions with the best set of information you had available to you. At the end of the day if your child feels loved and supported and isn't committing crimes you're probably okay. The great news for us both is our journey with them isn't over.

I've shared some of this before but for further context. We gained guardianship of SO's two youngest when we got married which means I missed a lot of their formative years. I was also still pretty young and dumb myself and now we had 2 young and dumb ones as well. I definitely didn't get everything right and I'm still trying with them as they enter adulthood and become parents of their own. I still look for moments to learn from them and to teach where I can, I'm not sure there is anything more that we can ask of ourselves.
Again... alleviating negative biases. Thanks, Xen.

I'll tell you what (because you just reminded me), I had a conversation with my daughter about a year ago. I'd had a beer or two, and I remember being struck by her otherness, her pure individuality, her separation from me. My whole life, I thought of her as an intrinsic part of me (I still can't help that), focusing on how much we were alike in so many ways. I noticed the differences too, but I could always blame her mother.

But that night, I guess it was the first time I really saw her as an independent adult, and it was mostly because of how impressed I was by the things coming out of her mouth. She knows things now it took me years of adulthood to figure out. I felt a profound sense of learning from her, which I've always recognized, but not necessarily intellectual learning like I got that night. It was exciting more than anything.

So... thanks for inspiring that memory. I don't know how well I explained it, but it was a good thing for me and ultimately my daughter.
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Re: Generation X's Method of Parenting

Post by Jersey Girl »

I haven't been posting much because I'm just burned out on it at the moment. Particularly politics. But of course I saw this and wanted to say something.

I swear I could write a book about this stuff but I'll spare you.

Schmo:
It felt like I was teaching myself what I thought my parents should have taught me. So, as a consequence, I imagined that I would be a much better parent by not making the same mistakes my parents made.

Oh Schmo, I think many of us who faced challenges early in life tried to do the same. I think our parents tried to do the same and their parents before them, and so on.

When I read your post earlier I thought about what I wanted for my own children and I'll just put a few of the goals here.

I wanted...

1. Them to live in a nice home where friends were welcome any time.

2. Them to have nice clothes (nothing extravagant) that helped them feel they fit in to their peer group.

3. Them to learn to serve others.

4. To work on understanding the perspective of others.

That's just some. I will tell you that all four of those came directly from my own childhood. While I had many friends, I only had one who I ever welcomed into my home because I was embarrassed by it's condition. I wore fairly simple clothing, nothing horrible, but when I became more self aware, I might have gotten one or two trendy outfits and I made my own miniskirts out of a yard of material because I knew how to do it. In high school I remember one of my friends who lived in a nicer neighborhood giving me a paper grocery bag of her hand me down sweaters. I absolutely loved those sweaters!

The last two items were something I learned early on. I learned to serve by the example of my parents and particularly my mother. I learned to work on understanding the perspectives of others because of hearing family stories and mainly...because some of my family was a damn mess. Just this past week I got a message from the wife of one of my blood line relatives who is ass deep in Ancestry, that someone "new" showed up in her hubs DNA results. The new person apparently lived right in my home town. I told my sister about it and she came up with the same female family member as a possible mother to the person. And I said verbatim "I think that wherever there's a giant crap pile [name] is going to crawl out from under it eventually."

I swear, Schmo, I could tell you story after story that would make your head spin off your neck about just that one person alone. The last time I saw her in life and in person, she was living in a legit junkyard. I am NOT lying here, Schmo. I'm talking WTF level stories here.

I ultimately met the goals that I listed but believe me when I tell you, other things have made me absolutely crazy and none of it was anything I could have predicted! We're going through something right this very second and the only good thing I have to report is that the Boy and I are on the same page. I mean I got a "crap happens" file that is simply unbelievable at this point and we could have never predicted any of it!

Anyway, I relate to what you have shared here. I think most parents try to do the best they can for their children based on what they learned about life from their own childhood. The problem is that the upcoming generation's issues are going to be different than the issues the parent's are trying to prevent in their children's upbringing. Lessons learned in the trenches as it were.

You did the best that you could, Schmo based on what you knew. You could have never imagined the world that your child would live in because it was developing before you in real time as you raised her. How could you have projected that?

Knowing you as much as I can know a person on this board, I believe you have done your level best. I believe that somewhere via your own example that you have been a successful parent and you have just yet to see it. I admire that you are reflective, Schmo. Not many parents take the time to mull things over like that.

I can tell you without question that you will self reflect like that, about whether or not you did right by your child for the rest of your life. Rest easy, Schmo. You have taught your child in the best ways that you can and the world is about to teach her things you have no control over. Will she learn more and useful lessons? I say she will. And one day, Schmo, if she doesn't already, she will look to you for advice to solve real life problems.

Just be there, Schmo.

I do agree with you in the sense that we mollie coddle people and adjust our communications so as not to offend. I don't know about you, but I was raised in a world and time when people cut through the crap and told it just like it was. We weren't under the influence of social media and the commercial media as we are now.

Just between you and me, I think that society is in a full on shift right now. The pendulum will strike balance eventually and there will be improvements. The cause of cause and effect, and recognizing that our survival depends on it.

In the mean time, it looks like we're living in hell right now. Circle your wagons, and find peace in your own soul and let the rest work itself out as it will.

Once again, don't worry, Dad. You can't predict what she will face in the world so just keep the door open. She will come to you, I can just about promise you that.
Last edited by Jersey Girl on Wed Aug 17, 2022 8:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
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