Split: Huh. What about Abortion?

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ajax18
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Split: Huh. What about Abortion?

Post by ajax18 »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:10 pm
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/doug-m ... -rcna49601

Welp. When I didn’t think my former CO could get any more nuttier:
In 2019, state Sen. Doug Mastriano sponsored legislation barring abortions at around six weeks. Asked if women who broke that law should be charged with murder, he said, "Yes."
This is the end game for reproductive rights if people don’t get serious about voting for Dems.

- Doc
I guess you'd agree with Stacey Abrams that the ultrasound of a 9 week old babies heart beating is just a hoax. Kind of an odd position for the party of science. When you say abortion Doc, do you mean the right to terminate the fetus right up until birth? I haven't heard any Democrat candidates willing to say any date sooner than that.

Even so it's kind of appalling that you're willing to look the other way at this much economic devastation as a centrist and continue to vote the party line on a party that is almost totally controlled by the radical left by people like Ocasio-Cortez and Bernie Sanders.
And when the Confederates saw Jackson standing fearless like a stonewall, the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
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Doctor Steuss
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Re: Huh. A former Company Commander of mine just won the PA GOP’s nomination for Gov

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ajax18 wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:39 pm
I guess you'd agree with Stacey Abrams that the ultrasound of a 9 week old babies heart beating is just a hoax.
Do you have a source for this?

The only quote I'm finding is:
There is no such thing as a heartbeat at six weeks. It is a manufactured sound designed to convince people that men have the right to take control of a woman's body
The last part of her second sentence is complete bullocks, but the first part isn't that far off as far as how fetal dopplers work, and the heartbeat "sound" that people hear.
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Re: Huh. A former Company Commander of mine just won the PA GOP’s nomination for Gov

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Doctor Steuss wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:59 pm
ajax18 wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:39 pm
I guess you'd agree with Stacey Abrams that the ultrasound of a 9 week old babies heart beating is just a hoax.
Do you have a source for this?

The only quote I'm finding is:
There is no such thing as a heartbeat at six weeks. It is a manufactured sound designed to convince people that men have the right to take control of a woman's body
The last part of her second sentence is complete bullocks, but the first part isn't that far off as far as how fetal dopplers work, and the heartbeat "sound" that people hear.

Ultimately, a politician doing what politicians do, and providing fodder for idiots on what should be a serious topic worthy of serious discussion.
A heartbeat can sometimes be detectable at that point.

https://www.healthline.com/health/pregn ... -heartbeat

But for folks using that as some sort of argument - what does this mean for them, when that sound is really just emanating from the first collection of heart tissue and not an actual functional ‘heart’, and when the fetus’s brain and lungs are still largely unformed and many months away from a stage of development that would allow the child to live outside of the womb? What makes this sound the finish line for no further consideration of abortion?
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ajax18
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Re: Huh. A former Company Commander of mine just won the PA GOP’s nomination for Gov

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Doctor Steuss wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:59 pm
ajax18 wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:39 pm
I guess you'd agree with Stacey Abrams that the ultrasound of a 9 week old babies heart beating is just a hoax.
Do you have a source for this?

The only quote I'm finding is:
There is no such thing as a heartbeat at six weeks. It is a manufactured sound designed to convince people that men have the right to take control of a woman's body
The last part of her second sentence is complete bullocks, but the first part isn't that far off as far as how fetal dopplers work, and the heartbeat "sound" that people hear.
I'm paraphrasing the quote. But if you go to 1:32 seconds on this Ben Shapiro video you'll be able to see what I'm driving at. Feel free to tell me what you think Ben is saying is not true.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7nwsNzQXm4
And when the Confederates saw Jackson standing fearless like a stonewall, the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
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Doctor Steuss
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Re: Huh. A former Company Commander of mine just won the PA GOP’s nomination for Gov

Post by Doctor Steuss »

canpakes wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:29 pm
A heartbeat can sometimes be detectable at that time.

https://www.healthline.com/health/pregn ... -heartbeat

But for folks using that as some sort of argument - what does this mean for them, when that sound is really just emanating from the first collection of heart tissue and not an actual functional ‘heart’, and when the fetus’s brain and lungs are still largely unformed and many months away from a stage of development that would allow the child to live outside of the womb? What makes this sound the finish line for no further consideration of abortion?
This is where things get funky as far as what a "heartbeat" is.

The ole "lub-dub" of a heartbeat that we can hear is from valves. Those valves aren't there until around 9 weeks.

From the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists language guidelines (although they take it out well beyond the valve stage):
It is clinically inaccurate to use the word “heartbeat” to describe the sound that can be heard on ultrasound in very early pregnancy. In fact, there are no chambers of the heart developed at the early stage in pregnancy that this word is used to describe, so there is no recognizable “heartbeat.” What pregnant people may hear is the ultrasound machine translating electronic impulses that signify fetal cardiac activity into the sound that we recognize as a heartbeat.
Until the chambers of the heart have been developed and can be detected via ultrasound (roughly 17-20 weeks of gestation), it is not accurate to characterize the embryo’s or fetus’s cardiac development as a heartbeat.
ACOG
Last edited by Doctor Steuss on Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Huh. A former Company Commander of mine just won the PA GOP’s nomination for Gov

Post by Doctor Steuss »

ajax18 wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:31 pm
I'm paraphrasing the quote. But if you go to 1:32 seconds on this Ben Shapiro video you'll be able to see what I'm driving at. Feel free to tell me what you think Ben is saying is not true.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7nwsNzQXm4
When speaking of embryonic development, the difference between 6 weeks, and 9 weeks is vast.

Either she said 6 weeks. Or she said 9 weeks. There's no "paraphrasing."

ETA: Well.. Shapiro is wrong about when the valves are there. They are functional a week sooner.
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Re: Huh. A former Company Commander of mine just won the PA GOP’s nomination for Gov

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

ajax18 wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:39 pm
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 6:10 pm
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/doug-m ... -rcna49601

Welp. When I didn’t think my former CO could get any more nuttier:



This is the end game for reproductive rights if people don’t get serious about voting for Dems.

- Doc
I guess you'd agree with Stacey Abrams that the ultrasound of a 9 week old babies heart beating is just a hoax. Kind of an odd position for the party of science. When you say abortion Doc, do you mean the right to terminate the fetus right up until birth? I haven't heard any Democrat candidates willing to say any date sooner than that.

Even so it's kind of appalling that you're willing to look the other way at this much economic devastation as a centrist and continue to vote the party line on a party that is almost totally controlled by the radical left by people like Ocasio-Cortez and Bernie Sanders.
What does any of that have to do with my post?

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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ajax18
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Re: Huh. A former Company Commander of mine just won the PA GOP’s nomination for Gov

Post by ajax18 »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:37 pm
ajax18 wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:31 pm
I'm paraphrasing the quote. But if you go to 1:32 seconds on this Ben Shapiro video you'll be able to see what I'm driving at. Feel free to tell me what you think Ben is saying is not true.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7nwsNzQXm4
When speaking of embryonic development, the difference between 6 weeks, and 9 weeks is vast.

Either she said 6 weeks. Or she said 9 weeks. There's no "paraphrasing."

ETA: Well.. Shapiro is wrong about when the valves are there. They are functional a week sooner.
A babies heart is rhythmically moving fluid after only 22 days. So Stacey Abrams claim of there being no heartbeat at 6 weeks makes no sense. For this reason Ben assumed she was talking about valve developement that you correctly pointed out is at 9 weeks.

A better point made by Ben is that while pro choice advocates are quick to point out that while legal, abortions at 8 months are rare, they never point out that instances of rape resulting in a pregnancy in which a woman is denied an abortion is even more rare. Can you how long before birth the Democratic party would outlaw abortion? I never get an answer so one must conclude that they mean right up until before the baby comes out the birth canal.
And when the Confederates saw Jackson standing fearless like a stonewall, the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
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Doctor Steuss
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Re: Huh. A former Company Commander of mine just won the PA GOP’s nomination for Gov

Post by Doctor Steuss »

ajax18 wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:28 pm
Doctor Steuss wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 8:37 pm

When speaking of embryonic development, the difference between 6 weeks, and 9 weeks is vast.

Either she said 6 weeks. Or she said 9 weeks. There's no "paraphrasing."

ETA: Well.. Shapiro is wrong about when the valves are there. They are functional a week sooner.
A babies heart is rhythmically moving fluid after only 22 days. So Stacey Abrams claim of there being no heartbeat at 6 weeks makes no sense. For this reason Ben assumed she was talking about valve developement that you correctly pointed out is at 9 weeks.
I think this helps illustrate how terms are useless unless people agree on what they mean. If nothing else, it tells us what we should all already know -- political ideologues, and politicians make for crap-poor arbiters of truth.

Why not use cardiomyocyte differentiation as the line in the sand? Why is a primordial heart moving fluid a better "heartbeat" than two cardiomyocytes synching their electrical impulses? When human heart cells are 3D printed into a heart tube, and contractions are synched up, is that a "heartbeat"?

Ultimately, the sound that's interpreted as a heartbeat, via ultrasound at 6 weeks, is a manufactured sound. Multiple medical organizations don't consider it a "heartbeat." Some organizations do. Two people I don't think should be forming public opinion on it though are Stacey Abrams, and Ben Shapiro.

When all is said and done, I think it makes for a crap metric for personhood.
A better point made by Ben is that while pro choice advocates are quick to point out that while legal, abortions at 8 months are rare, they never point out that instances of rape resulting in a pregnancy in which a woman is denied an abortion is even more rare.
Is this really a point Ben made? Lol.

Thank you, Ben, for pointing out that while abortion has been legal, it's been rare for a woman to be denied an abortion. Good lawd, I knew he was a numbskull, but that's absolute logic gold.
Can you how long before birth the Democratic party would outlaw abortion? I never get an answer so one must conclude that they mean right up until before the baby comes out the birth canal.
Based on the text of the Bill some Democrats put forth over a year ago, it would be where the Supreme Court placed it for almost half a century. Medical viability.

Women's Health Protection Act of 2021
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ajax18
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Re: Huh. A former Company Commander of mine just won the PA GOP’s nomination for Gov

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Based on the text of the Bill some Democrats put forth over a year ago, it would be where the Supreme Court placed it for almost half a century. Medical viability.
What does that mean now, 6 months after conception?
Why not use cardiomyocyte differentiation as the line in the sand?
Why not use brain development? That can be up to 25 years old.
Some organizations do. Two people I don't think should be forming public opinion on it though are Stacey Abrams, and Ben Shapiro.
Public opinion? What happened to freedom of speech? If you don't buy his argument than counter it and let people form public opinion based on their own conclusions. You can't just censor people for having an opinion you don't like. Ben Shapiro is not running for Governor nor will he be signing executive orders on the issue.
And when the Confederates saw Jackson standing fearless like a stonewall, the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
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