Split: Huh. What about Abortion?

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Doctor Steuss
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Re: Huh. A former Company Commander of mine just won the PA GOP’s nomination for Gov

Post by Doctor Steuss »

ajax18 wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 11:01 pm
Based on the text of the Bill some Democrats put forth over a year ago, it would be where the Supreme Court placed it for almost half a century. Medical viability.
What does that mean now, 6 months after conception?
The Bill defines what they meant by the term:
(7) VIABILITY.—The term “viability” means the point in a pregnancy at which, in the good-faith medical judgment of the treating health care provider, based on the particular facts of the case before the health care provider, there is a reasonable likelihood of sustained fetal survival outside the uterus with or without artificial support.
I doubt 24 weeks would work, without mitigating circumstances. At that point, with advanced medical care, a fetus has about a 70% chance of long-term survival. Based on the text of the bill, I'd guess they would probably use 21 weeks, as that's where the chances drop to below 1% with advanced medical care. That being said, less-than-1% is still more than zero, so "reasonable" would be whatever the courts decided.

21 weeks, and 1 day is the current record holder for premature survival.

Why not use cardiomyocyte differentiation as the line in the sand?
Why not use brain development? That can be up to 25 years old.
Indeed, why not?

It brings us right back to the same problem of who is defining terms. When the first two neurons form connections, is that a brain? Or would the line be certain stages of development, like when pain can be experienced?

All-in-all, we return to: Why a so-called "heartbeat"?

If a metric is put forth, like the pulsing of a primitive tube heart, the underlying reason should likely be put forth as well.
Some organizations do. Two people I don't think should be forming public opinion on it though are Stacey Abrams, and Ben Shapiro.
Public opinion? What happened to freedom of speech? Ben Shapiro is not running for Governor nor will he be signing executive orders on the issue.
I'm not sure why you think me believing public opinion shouldn't be formed on polemical stupidity somehow negates their freedom to say incredibly stupid things, and have people believe those stupid things.
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Re: Huh. A former Company Commander of mine just won the PA GOP’s nomination for Gov

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ajax18 wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 9:28 pm
A better point made by Ben is that while pro choice advocates are quick to point out that while legal, abortions at 8 months are rare, they never point out that instances of rape resulting in a pregnancy in which a woman is denied an abortion is even more rare.
That statistic may soon reverse in as many as 15 states.

https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2 ... pe-incest/

Meanwhile … split for derail.
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Re: Huh. A former Company Commander of mine just won the PA GOP’s nomination for Gov

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(7) VIABILITY.—The term “viability” means the point in a pregnancy at which, in the good-faith medical judgment of the treating health care provider, based on the particular facts of the case before the health care provider, there is a reasonable likelihood of sustained fetal survival outside the uterus with or without artificial support.
I doubt 24 weeks would work, without mitigating circumstances. At that point, with advanced medical care, a fetus has about a 70% chance of long-term survival. Based on the text of the bill, I'd guess they would probably use 21 weeks, as that's where the chances drop to below 1% with advanced medical care. That being said, less-than-1% is still more than zero, so "reasonable" would be whatever the courts decided.
That's a fair answer. I think if Democrats campaigned on that, this would be supported by the majority of public opinion. I personally wouldn't agree with it, especially if it's just a case of a healthy baby being an inconvenient burden, but I don't claim to be in the center of public opinion.
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Re: Huh. A former Company Commander of mine just won the PA GOP’s nomination for Gov

Post by Morley »

I doubt 24 weeks would work, without mitigating circumstances. At that point, with advanced medical care, a fetus has about a 70% chance of long-term survival. Based on the text of the bill, I'd guess they would probably use 21 weeks, as that's where the chances drop to below 1% with advanced medical care. That being said, less-than-1% is still more than zero, so "reasonable" would be whatever the courts decided.
ajax18 wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 2:46 pm
That's a fair answer. I think if Democrats campaigned on that, this would be supported by the majority of public opinion. I personally wouldn't agree with it, especially if it's just a case of a healthy baby being an inconvenient burden, but I don't claim to be in the center of public opinion.
Ajax, that's basically what most Dems are campaigning on. You don't realize it, because, when some liberal says something stupid, Breitbart formulates an out-of-context article about it, you read it and 'paraphrase' it into something even more outrageous, and then you assign this macerated and composted mess of a position to all Democrats.
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Re: Split: Huh. What about Abortion?

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ajax18 wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:39 pm
I guess you'd agree with Stacey Abrams that the ultrasound of a 9 week old babies heart beating is just a hoax.
That's two lies in one. She never called anything a hoax and she never referenced "9 week old" embryos, let alone "babies."
Kind of an odd position for the party of science.
Abrams has science on her side, whereas the Republicans invent crap out of this air to trigger "feelings" based policies that effectively turn the bodies of the majority of the population over to the state. Kind of an odd position for the party of "liberty" and "freedom."
When you say abortion Doc, do you mean the right to terminate the fetus right up until birth? I haven't heard any Democrat candidates willing to say any date sooner than that.
The only time a baby is aborted at the time of birth is in very rare and drastic circumstances that endanger the life of the mother. In other words, it pretty much never happens. The dishonesty of you and your party would like to pretend that poor black women (of course they're black!) are regularly deciding on a whim to just change their minds after nine months of carrying a fetus to term.

The real question is why are you so anti-science, and why are you unable to tell the truth about any given subject? Every time you get busted for being a moron on the threads you start, you usually come back with, "Oh well my source is smarter than me so go read his stuff and tell me how he's wrong."

Lo and behold, here you go again.
ajax18 wrote:
Tue Sep 27, 2022 7:39 pm
I'm paraphrasing the quote. But if you go to 1:32 seconds on this Ben Shapiro video you'll be able to see what I'm driving at. Feel free to tell me what you think Ben is saying is not true.
Right on cue! Basically, "I'm too stupid to understand my own preferred source, but he sounds smart so you go read it and tell me what he's saying and while you're at it show me how he's wrong."

So you really don't know what the hell you're talking about, you're just taking it on faith that your preachers in patriot attire are right in all of their ignorant assertions. In this case, a Jew who doesn't even acknowledge that his own religion disagrees with his views on abortion because it states human life only begins at birth.

Ajax is becoming a biproduct of the right wing media lies and spin that resulted from Abram's interview. FOX tried to debunk her by flat out lying about what she actually said the same way ajax is right here.

After Stacey Abrams corrects misinformation about a six-week “fetal heartbeat,” Fox’s Will Cain says she's spreading a “QAnon-plus level” conspiracy theory

In that video FOX host said "let's roll the tape" on Abrams' interview, but conveniently they said they were having problems showing it so they relied on some dishonest idiot who said, "I'll tell you what she said" and then he proceeded to make up crap from whole cloth and the FOX host just ran with it. This is example 56,743 as to why FOX isn't a real news station.

Related: Fox News medical contributor just admitted Stacey Abrams was right, there is no fetal “heartbeat” at six weeks

Right-wing media lie about fetal development to justify Georgia’s draconian limits on abortion
"I am not an American ... In my view premarital sex should be illegal ...(there are) mentally challenged people with special needs like myself- Ajax18
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Re: Huh. A former Company Commander of mine just won the PA GOP’s nomination for Gov

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Ajax, that's basically what most Dems are campaigning on.
I remember Brett Baier asking Tim Ryan if there is any point during a pregnancy at which abortion should illegal. He said no, that you have to leave it up to the sole discretion of the woman. If he believed that abortion should be illegal after 6 months, than he sure fooled me. He sure wouldn't answer the question in a straight forward manner.
And when the Confederates saw Jackson standing fearless like a stonewall, the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
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Re: Huh. A former Company Commander of mine just won the PA GOP’s nomination for Gov

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ajax18 wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 11:08 pm
Ajax, that's basically what most Dems are campaigning on.
I remember Brett Baier asking Tim Ryan if there is any point during a pregnancy at which abortion should illegal. He said no, that you have to leave it up to the sole discretion of the woman. If he believed that abortion should be illegal after 6 months, than he sure fooled me. He sure wouldn't answer the question in a straight forward manner.
Ajax: Dems don't believe XYZ
Dem: Dems do believe XYZ
Ajax: But FOX News told me...

The fact is late term abortions were illegal in two dozen states for decades before Roe was overturned. The only time they are legal are in extremely rare and dangerous circumstances.

On the other hand we don't have to wonder what the Right Wing really wants because they're making it perfectly clear in numerous Red States that children who are raped should be forced to term, effectively ruining their lives if not flat out killing them. Because, you know, "family values."
"I am not an American ... In my view premarital sex should be illegal ...(there are) mentally challenged people with special needs like myself- Ajax18
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Re: Huh. A former Company Commander of mine just won the PA GOP’s nomination for Gov

Post by ajax18 »

Vēritās wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 11:16 pm
ajax18 wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 11:08 pm


I remember Brett Baier asking Tim Ryan if there is any point during a pregnancy at which abortion should illegal. He said no, that you have to leave it up to the sole discretion of the woman. If he believed that abortion should be illegal after 6 months, than he sure fooled me. He sure wouldn't answer the question in a straight forward manner.
Ajax: Dems don't believe XYZ
Dem: Dems do believe XYZ
Ajax: But FOX News told me...

The fact is late term abortions were illegal in two dozen states for decades before Roe was overturned. The only time they are legal are in extremely rare and dangerous circumstances.

On the other hand we don't have to wonder what the Right Wing really wants because they're making it perfectly clear in numerous Red States that children who are raped should be forced to term, effectively ruining their lives if not flat out killing them. Because, you know, "family values."
What percent of all abortions are due to rape?
And when the Confederates saw Jackson standing fearless like a stonewall, the army of Northern Virginia took courage and drove the federal army off their land.
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Re: Split: Huh. What about Abortion?

Post by Vēritās »

Is a 'fetal heartbeat' really a heartbeat at 6 weeks?
So far this year, 11 states have enacted 90 laws meant to restrict abortion — the most in a single year since the 1973 Roe v. Wade ruling.

Now, lawmakers in nine U.S. states have passed laws banning abortions when a fetal heartbeat can be detected, or at six weeks of pregnancy, according to data from the Guttmacher Institute, a nonprofit organization for sexual and reproductive health research and advocacy.

But what exactly do we mean when we talk about a "fetal heartbeat" at six weeks of pregnancy? Although some people might picture a heart-shaped organ beating inside a fetus, this is not the case.

Rather, at six weeks of pregnancy, an ultrasound can detect "a little flutter in the area that will become the future heart of the baby," said Dr. Saima Aftab, medical director of the Fetal Care Center at Nicklaus Children's Hospital in Miami. This flutter happens because the group of cells that will become the future "pacemaker" of the heart gain the capacity to fire electrical signals, she said.

But the heart is far from fully formed at this stage, and the "beat" isn't audible; if doctors put a stethoscope up to a woman's belly this early on in her pregnancy, they would not hear a heartbeat, Aftab told Live Science. (What's more, it isn't until the eighth week of pregnancy that the baby is called a fetus; prior to that, it's still considered an embryo, according to the Cleveland Clinic.)

It's been only in the last few decades that doctors have even been able to detect this flutter at six weeks, thanks to the use of more-sophisticated ultrasound technologies, Aftab said. Previously, the technology wasn't advanced enough to detect the flutter that early on in pregnancy.

Although a lot of weight seems to be put on the detection of this flutter, "by no means does it translate to viability of the heart" or viability of the pregnancy, Aftab said.
"I am not an American ... In my view premarital sex should be illegal ...(there are) mentally challenged people with special needs like myself- Ajax18
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Re: Huh. A former Company Commander of mine just won the PA GOP’s nomination for Gov

Post by Vēritās »

ajax18 wrote:
Thu Sep 29, 2022 12:27 am
Vēritās wrote:
Wed Sep 28, 2022 11:16 pm
Ajax: Dems don't believe XYZ
Dem: Dems do believe XYZ
Ajax: But FOX News told me...

The fact is late term abortions were illegal in two dozen states for decades before Roe was overturned. The only time they are legal are in extremely rare and dangerous circumstances.

On the other hand we don't have to wonder what the Right Wing really wants because they're making it perfectly clear in numerous Red States that children who are raped should be forced to term, effectively ruining their lives if not flat out killing them. Because, you know, "family values."
What percent of all abortions are due to rape?
What percentage does it need to be before you say to yourself, this child shouldn't be forced to maintain a pregnancy to term? You ask the dumbest questions thinking you're somehow proving a point but all you're doing is reinforcing the point that people like you really don't give a flying damn about human life. This was obvious with your idiotic antics downplaying the pandemic and being perfectly fine with Republicans sacrificing thousands of American lives so some idiot restaurant owner you'll never know could keep his store open a bit longer. All you care about is whatever the Republican cult tells you to believe. If they changed their platform tomorrow and FOX News started telling you abortions are necessary and should be mandated to keep the white race pure, you'd be jumping all over that proposition with glee.
Rape and Rape-Related Pregnancy: By the Numbers

Almost 3 million women in the U.S. experienced RRP during their lifetime.

The prevalence of RRP was similar across racial and ethnic groups (i.e., Hispanic, White non-Hispanic, Black non-Hispanic, and other non-Hispanic).

About 18 million women have experienced vaginal rape in their lifetime. Women who were raped by a current or former intimate partner were more likely to report RRP (26%) compared to those raped by an acquaintance (5.2%) or a stranger (6.9%).

Of women who were raped by an intimate partner, 30% experienced a form of reproductive coercion by the same partner. Specifically, about 20% reported that their partner had tried to get them pregnant when they did not want to or tried to stop them from using birth control. About 23% reported their partner refused to use a condom.

Women raped by an intimate partner who reported RRP were significantly more likely to have experienced reproductive coercion compared to women who were raped by an intimate partner but did not become pregnant.
So what do these percentages need to be before you give a crap?

This is the part where to tuck tail and flee from your own thread again, proving once again you were never asking questions in good faith.
"I am not an American ... In my view premarital sex should be illegal ...(there are) mentally challenged people with special needs like myself- Ajax18
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