Belief in God

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doubtingthomas
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Re: Belief in God

Post by doubtingthomas »

Physics Guy wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:08 pm
Peer review is a good standard, but it's a minimal standard, not a gold standard. Tons of stuff that gets published in high-caliber peer-reviewed journals is wrong.
Including hard science papers published in Nature?
Physics Guy wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 10:08 pm
It's something, but not all that much.
Isn't that scary in medical science and psychology?
"I have the type of (REAL) job where I can choose how to spend my time," says Marcus. :roll:
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Jersey Girl
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Re: Belief in God

Post by Jersey Girl »

I've been MIA here for the most part. Will get back on the horse here over the weekend. If anyone cares. :lol:
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

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Jersey Girl
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Re: Belief in God

Post by Jersey Girl »

Some Schmo wrote:
Tue Nov 15, 2022 1:26 am
Jersey Girl wrote:
Tue Nov 15, 2022 12:17 am
Do you think that everyone's answer would match yours?
No, they would supply their own experience of it, but the answer might express the same idea.

I see what you're getting at.
I hoped you would get it.
Would you categorize your evidence as empirical or subjective to your experience?
It's subjective, but I could start keeping records of everything she does for me with supporting documentation (including videos) that, if documented long enough, could demonstrate to others her love.
I submit that your supporting document would likely not match another's documentation as evidence for love.
We can't do that for actual god experiences, although we could certainly document people's love for their gods. I will even say that I understand people falling in love with their own creations.
I think I can do it for god experiences. I wouldn't expect anyone else to accept them as gospel for their experiences would most likely be different and many folks wouldn't attribute them to a god in the first place.
Are you saying that hypotheses are not part of the scientific method?
Or course they are. They're in the beginning of the process

The vast majority of scientific hypotheses are thrown out. Not the same for peer reviewed theories.
I don't think I'm in a position to address peer reviewed theories. I do think they are theories based on the best current evidence. Theories are revised as new evidence is discovered. In terms of science, I think we accept whatever theory that is accepted at the current time. I don't see a conflict between science and spirituality or God belief. That is to say, I don't think they compete with each other.
I agree. I think that's part of spirituality. I think other things are as well like intuition and perceptiveness. FTR, unless I misunderstand you, I don't think any of those can be taught. When you say "religious in some way" what do you mean? Do you mean like a religious person might pray for something....it happens...and they take that as spiritual?
When I said "religious in some way," I meant the suggestion that there wasn't a way to feel spirituality without religion, or that spirituality has to have some religious component. That idea is what needs to be taught.

I think everyone has deep, powerfully moving mental experiences. I have them regularly. It's what we attribute those natural occurrences to that differs from person to person. So yeah, if one thinks those experiences are reserved for religious thought, one is misattributing their source.
Yes, of course. The one difference between you and I is that I intuit God and you do not. I see no reason to argue about it. But if you'd like to argue it out, I'm happy to take it on.
If you could see omnipotence at work in this world, what would that look like?
In concert with a god that cared? Infinite possibilities. Not having to worry about our environment would be an easy start.
Point taken. Let me ask you one more question about that. If an omnipotent god did exist do you think you would benefit from a lack of free will and the conflict that it produces? I'm making an assumption there about your version of an omnipotent god.

In closing on this current exchange. Thank you for sharing what you think. That's all I ever am after around here. Except for a laugh of course!
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

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Jersey Girl
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Re: Belief in God

Post by Jersey Girl »

canpakes wrote:
Sun Nov 13, 2022 4:50 pm
Some Schmo wrote:
Sat Nov 12, 2022 5:45 am

My wife has been making me meals for years now; she keeps me alive. That's pretty physical evidence of her love for me.

Of course, to me, love is action, not the associated feelings.
Your partner’s actions can absolutely be a manifestation of love … but intent can factor in on both sides of the exchange. : D

Still, this question prompts another, for you, Jersey Girl (and I still owe you an answer from a previous post; will have to find that).

What actions of love to you see - either from God or other external entities driven by God - as evidence that ‘God loves us’?
It took me a while to relocate this post of yours in the shuffle, cp.

Here is your question for me: What actions of love to you see - either from God or other external entities driven by God - as evidence that ‘God loves us’?


I don't know what you mean by other external entities driven by God. Do you mean what we call natural forces? Things like hurricanes, wildfires, floods, tornadoes? Tell me more about what you mean.

Back to your question about what actions of love do I see from God as evidence that God loves us.

I would qualify what I have to say by specifying that these are actions of love that I think I see from God as evidence that God loves us. While I could give you a one word (name) reply. I'll just share my thoughts with you in list form.

1. The earth for my home.
2. Supplying the earth with food to sustain me.
3. Hunger.
4. The stars in the Night Sky above me that I wonder at.
5. The ability to wonder, to imagine, to search, and to strive. To think inwardly and outside of myself.
6. Free will that allows me to choose and the knowledge that I might mess it up, and have many times over. My conscience.
7. The opportunity to try again.
8. The opportunity to face hardship or actual disaster, to struggle, to learn from it.
9. A chance to be who I am and love people.
10. The situations which have led me to learn to accept who I am even though I rarely ever show myself to others.
11. The chance to recognize things that are different or special about me, and how I can put them to use.
12. The encounters I have had with other people including my parents, extended family, the family I made myself, friends, and even the brief encounters I have had that impacted me or I hope, impacted them positively.
13. The opportunity to benefit from so many people in my life. People who did me wrong, people who forgot about me, people who were afflicted, the chance to understand them even when they caused pain. People who loved me and still love me.
14. The chance to even be born on which all of the above hangs.
15. Powerful personal experiences.
16. The God who allows me to change my mind or change course, like God changed his mind for humanity.

I think I'm out of reasons for the moment though if I put my mind to it I possibly could write a zillion ways I think I see evidence for God's love for me and for humankind in general.

If this was boring, don't blame me. You're the one who said you wanted to know how people think so there you go!

:)
Last edited by Jersey Girl on Tue Nov 22, 2022 5:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

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Jersey Girl
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Re: Belief in God

Post by Jersey Girl »

Some Schmo wrote:
Sun Nov 13, 2022 7:29 pm
canpakes wrote:
Sun Nov 13, 2022 4:50 pm
Your partner’s actions can absolutely be a manifestation of love … but intent can factor in on both sides of the exchange. : D
I suppose, but I'm trying to think of an ulterior motive for doing things for me consistently over a few decades other than an intent to love me. It's exactly why I do everything I do for her. I'm not biding my time until something better comes along, and I doubt she is too.

But your point is taken.
Well in terms of the true crime community as we who partake call it, there are plenty of spouses who take care of the other spouse until the insurance is in place or the marriage has lasted long enough to make a literal killing off of it.

:twisted:
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

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Some Schmo
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Re: Belief in God

Post by Some Schmo »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 1:29 am
Point taken. Let me ask you one more question about that. If an omnipotent god did exist do you think you would benefit from a lack of free will and the conflict that it produces? I'm making an assumption there about your version of an omnipotent god.
I'm not convinced we really have free will now.

I think I've said it before, but I don't believe for one second our consciousness is in control. I think's it's more like an echo, or post hoc explanation of what our subconscious has already decided.
In closing on this current exchange. Thank you for sharing what you think. That's all I ever am after around here. Except for a laugh of course!
Right back at you.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

The god idea is popular with desperate people.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Belief in God

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Some Schmo wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 5:35 am
I think I've said it before, but I don't believe for one second our consciousness is in control. I think's it's more like an echo, or post hoc explanation of what our subconscious has already decided.
This is where I’ve more or less landed, too. I do wonder if consciousness is like a wave function a la the ‘slit experiment’ wherein a choice presents itself:

Image

Say the choice in this instance is to eat or not to eat. As one’s consciousness weighs the choices all the lines to the right are the possible choices with some having a greater probability than others of being selected. As soon as a choice is made, or ‘observed’, then the others collapse giving way to another decision point. So on and so forth. Where I get hung up is whether or not all the prior choices lined up in a manner so that it becomes a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy and the collapse of all other possible choices was merely an illusion of choice. Determinism is a helluva a thing when you begin to give it some thought. I know I can’t really parse it out to a satisfactory philosophical or even technical answer.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Some Schmo
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Re: Belief in God

Post by Some Schmo »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:57 pm
Determinism is a helluva a thing when you begin to give it some thought. I know I can’t really parse it out to a satisfactory philosophical or even technical answer.

- Doc
I guess I just look it it like we are another animal, going about our lives like other animals do, satisfying our immediate needs. Our biology tells us what to do. If we need air, we breath. No choice. When we're hungry, all we think about is food. No choice. If you think about it, your body is constantly making demands.

This is not to say we aren't influenced by inputs; we definitely are. I just think our decision making comes unconsciously as a result of how our personality reacts to whatever the choice is combined with the influence of our life's inputs. After that's done, our consciousness tells us a comfortable story about how the unconscious got there.

Another way I look at it is the unconscious is our operating system, and specific skills and knowledge we seek out are downloaded apps. We don't need to download "walking" or "eating" because it's built into the operation system, but we probably need to download "basketball" because that doesn't come as naturally. However, once you've used the basketball app enough (practice), it becomes so integrated with the operating system that you barely need to tap it any more to get it working.

Consciousness is built into the operating system, a simplistic monitoring system to get a reductive view of what's going on under the hood.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

The god idea is popular with desperate people.
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Jersey Girl
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Re: Belief in God

Post by Jersey Girl »

Some Schmo wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 3:21 pm
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Mon Nov 21, 2022 2:57 pm
Determinism is a helluva a thing when you begin to give it some thought. I know I can’t really parse it out to a satisfactory philosophical or even technical answer.

- Doc
I guess I just look it it like we are another animal, going about our lives like other animals do, satisfying our immediate needs. Our biology tells us what to do. If we need air, we breath. No choice. When we're hungry, all we think about is food. No choice. If you think about it, your body is constantly making demands.

This is not to say we aren't influenced by inputs; we definitely are. I just think our decision making comes unconsciously as a result of how our personality reacts to whatever the choice is combined with the influence of our life's inputs. After that's done, our consciousness tells us a comfortable story about how the unconscious got there.

Another way I look at it is the unconscious is our operating system, and specific skills and knowledge we seek out are downloaded apps. We don't need to download "walking" or "eating" because it's built into the operation system, but we probably need to download "basketball" because that doesn't come as naturally. However, once you've used the basketball app enough (practice), it becomes so integrated with the operating system that you barely need to tap it any more to get it working.

Consciousness is built into the operating system, a simplistic monitoring system to get a reductive view of what's going on under the hood.
To what are you referring as our operating system? The human brain?
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

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Some Schmo
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Re: Belief in God

Post by Some Schmo »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Sat Nov 26, 2022 7:59 am
Another way I look at it is the unconscious is our operating system...
To what are you referring as our operating system? The human brain?
Like I said, the unconscious.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

The god idea is popular with desperate people.
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