Belief in God

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Some Schmo
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Re: Belief in God

Post by Some Schmo »

KevinSim wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 3:12 am
Some Schmo wrote:
Sun Nov 06, 2022 5:29 am
I would think it would be for a universe creator.
I'm not even convinced God created the Universe. I'm also pretty sure God didn't just will the Universe into existence. If God played any part at all, I believe what He did was make use of natural processes. If that were the case, such influence would not necessarily give Him the power to create a planet suitable for life without any tectonic activity.
Well that is exceptionally convenient for your god. So convenient, in fact, it's impossible to believe you didn't make it up to suit other beliefs you cherish.
Some Schmo wrote:I've come to the undeniable conclusion that any and every assertion about a god is made up.
It is absolutely not true that any and every assertion about a god is made up. There, it's not undeniable, since I just denied it.
It's undeniable to me, because I value honesty. What assertion about god isn't made up?
Some Schmo wrote:I don't respect people's "beliefs" just because they have them, especially when so many of them are silly or downright stupid.
I don't expect you to respect my beliefs just because I have them. I expect you to respect my beliefs because they make sense. If they don't make sense to you, then I clearly understand why you would not respect them.
They don't make sense to me, from the perspective that you're trying to believe something based on the reality to which we have access. They do make sense, however, if your motive is comfort or quelling existential angst. But if comfort is the motive (and it usually is), then that's not a respectable position to me.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

The god idea is popular with desperate people.
KevinSim
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Re: Belief in God

Post by KevinSim »

Chap wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 5:48 pm
So, um, who created those other universes with their black holes? And who created the entity you call "God"?
Chap, you ask that because everything has to be created, right? There has to be a beginning to everything, right? That makes intuitive sense, but is it true? There is a somewhat popular Latter-day Saint hymn called If You Could Hie to Kolob whose message seems to be that those things never had a start. There have always been universes with black holes that created other universes (if Baxter's theory is correct). There have always been deities who raised spirit children in the hopes that they too would, under their guidance, become deities themselves. In the words of that hymn, nobody can ever find the generation when gods began to be.
KevinSim
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Re: Belief in God

Post by KevinSim »

Some Schmo wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 3:38 pm
KevinSim wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 1:15 am
If Bigfoot/Sasquatch had to exist in order for some good things to be preserved forever, I'd believe in Bigfoot.
How would you know?
Perhaps I should rephrase that. If I knew that Bigfoot had to exist in order for some good things to be preserved forever, then I'd believe in Bigfoot.
Some Schmo wrote:Talking about beliefs that make no sense, this tops the list.
What about the existence of a deity makes no sense?
Marcus
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Re: Belief in God

Post by Marcus »

KevinSim wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 5:28 pm
Some Schmo wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 3:38 pm
How would you know?
Perhaps I should rephrase that. If I knew that Bigfoot had to exist in order for some good things to be preserved forever, then I'd believe in Bigfoot.
Some Schmo wrote:Talking about beliefs that make no sense, this tops the list.
What about the existence of a deity makes no sense?
He didn't say the existence of a deity makes no sense, as you clearly quoted above.
KevinSim
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Re: Belief in God

Post by KevinSim »

Some Schmo wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 3:45 pm
Well that is exceptionally convenient for your god. So convenient, in fact, it's impossible to believe you didn't make it up to suit other beliefs you cherish.
Some Schmo, that's an overly simplistic dismissal of the things I said. There are a lot of beliefs I cherish that have nothing to do with what I said. I made an attempt to find the most basic characteristics a deity could have, and what I said was what I came up with. Sure, it ends up supporting some of the beliefs I cherish, but that doesn't mean those beliefs are wrong.
Some Schmo wrote:It's undeniable to me, because I value honesty. What assertion about god isn't made up?
Nothing that Jesus taught about God was made up.
Some Schmo wrote:They don't make sense to me, from the perspective that you're trying to believe something based on the reality to which we have access. They do make sense, however, if your motive is comfort or quelling existential angst. But if comfort is the motive (and it usually is), then that's not a respectable position to me.
My motive is definitely not comfort. My motive is maintaining both my conscience and my sanity. My conscience demands a deity. My sanity demands that I not be that deity.
I'd also say that it's good for you to be grounded in reality, in the things that are actually true. But in addition to being based in what is actually true, people should be equally motivated by what should be true. All this emphasis people seem to put in being based on what is actually true seems to me to be missing the boat.
KevinSim
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Re: Belief in God

Post by KevinSim »

Marcus wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 5:41 pm
KevinSim wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 5:28 pm
What about the existence of a deity makes no sense?
He didn't say the existence of a deity makes no sense, as you clearly quoted above.
Ah, my bad. What about the belief in the existence of a deity, makes no sense?
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Belief in God

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

KevinSim wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 5:54 pm
Marcus wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 5:41 pm
He didn't say the existence of a deity makes no sense, as you clearly quoted above.
Ah, my bad. What about the belief in the existence of a deity, makes no sense?
You’re just hedging your god-belief with vague language and accommodations for a decidedly Mormon spirituality. It’s like playing a game of Monopoly with you, but you’re creating new rules as you go that you think fit while discarding rules you don’t like. It’s clearly an absurdity, hence why you’re here - you’re wrestling with the cognitive dissonance of believing in a fraud and a god-belief that’s contradictory and unfulfilling.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
Marcus
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Re: Belief in God

Post by Marcus »

Let's recap:
Some Schmo wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 3:38 pm
KevinSim wrote:
Thu Nov 10, 2022 1:15 am
If Bigfoot/Sasquatch had to exist in order for some good things to be preserved forever, I'd believe in Bigfoot.
...Talking about beliefs that make no sense, this tops the list.
That's Some Schmo's comment.

Your first response:
KevinSim wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 5:28 pm
Some Schmo wrote:Talking about beliefs that make no sense, this tops the list.
What about the existence of a deity makes no sense?
I point out he was referring to believing something nonsensical, NOT the belief in a deity and your next round is to simply repeat that tripe:
KevinSim wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 5:54 pm
Marcus wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 5:41 pm
He didn't say the existence of a deity makes no sense, as you clearly quoted above.
Ah, my bad. What about the belief in the existence of a deity, makes no sense?
No one who can type on a keyboard can possibly be that legitimately unknowing, but you can certainly be purposefully that obtuse, which brings me to Doc's assessment:
Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 6:53 pm
KevinSim wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 5:54 pm

Ah, my bad. What about the belief in the existence of a deity, makes no sense?
You’re just hedging your god-belief with vague language and accommodations for a decidedly Mormon spirituality. It’s like playing a game of Monopoly with you, but you’re creating new rules as you go that you think fit while discarding rules you don’t like. It’s clearly an absurdity, hence why you’re here - you’re wrestling with the cognitive dissonance of believing in a fraud and a god-belief that’s contradictory and unfulfilling.

- Doc
And being an ass-hatted troller in the process.
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Some Schmo
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Re: Belief in God

Post by Some Schmo »

KevinSim wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 5:28 pm
Some Schmo wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 3:38 pm
How would you know?
Perhaps I should rephrase that. If I knew that Bigfoot had to exist in order for some good things to be preserved forever, then I'd believe in Bigfoot.
Some Schmo wrote:Talking about beliefs that make no sense, this tops the list.
What about the existence of a deity makes no sense?
Marcus is right in that you aren't asking the right question. What I was saying was that it makes no sense to force yourself to believe something because you think it has to exist in order for "good things to be preserved forever." Reality is what it is regardless of your beliefs.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

The god idea is popular with desperate people.
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Some Schmo
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Re: Belief in God

Post by Some Schmo »

KevinSim wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 5:51 pm
Some Schmo wrote:
Fri Nov 11, 2022 3:45 pm
Well that is exceptionally convenient for your god. So convenient, in fact, it's impossible to believe you didn't make it up to suit other beliefs you cherish.
Some Schmo, that's an overly simplistic dismissal of the things I said. There are a lot of beliefs I cherish that have nothing to do with what I said. I made an attempt to find the most basic characteristics a deity could have, and what I said was what I came up with. Sure, it ends up supporting some of the beliefs I cherish, but that doesn't mean those beliefs are wrong.
You said you weren't convinced your god created the universe. That a god created the universe is about the only thing people tend to agree on regarding their various god ideas.

And you're saying you don't believe that. I'm sorry, but that strikes me as incredibly convenient given the conversation we're having.
Some Schmo wrote:It's undeniable to me, because I value honesty. What assertion about god isn't made up?
Nothing that Jesus taught about God was made up.
Of course it was. What Jesus is purported to have said is all assertion. Nobody who wrote about the Jesus character lived when he was supposed to have lived.

And again, you're assuming there was a magical god-son named Jesus. It's all assertion built on other assertions.
Some Schmo wrote:They don't make sense to me, from the perspective that you're trying to believe something based on the reality to which we have access. They do make sense, however, if your motive is comfort or quelling existential angst. But if comfort is the motive (and it usually is), then that's not a respectable position to me.
My motive is definitely not comfort. My motive is maintaining both my conscience and my sanity. My conscience demands a deity. My sanity demands that I not be that deity.
Everyone is motivated by comfort. I'll admit up front that everything I post on this forum represents the things that make me comfortable: stating what I honestly believe is true.

I'm curious why your "conscience demands a deity." I have a conscience too and it's never made such a crazy demand. In fact, my conscience tells me to encourage people to question their gods, because I consider god belief a mild mental illness in that it compromises your immunity to other kinds of BS. My conscience desires a better standard of living for everyone.
I'd also say that it's good for you to be grounded in reality, in the things that are actually true. But in addition to being based in what is actually true, people should be equally motivated by what should be true. All this emphasis people seem to put in being based on what is actually true seems to me to be missing the boat.
I agree we should strive for a better reality, but that takes human will and work. We can't just wish for something to make it true.

I think the problem you have there is that not everyone agrees on what should be true.
Last edited by Some Schmo on Fri Nov 11, 2022 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

The god idea is popular with desperate people.
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