Will the Republic as we know it end?

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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Will the Republic as we know it end?

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Did you read the definition you linked?
an act or instance of revolting against civil authority or an established government
Lol. :roll:

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
honorentheos
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Re: Will the Republic as we know it end?

Post by honorentheos »

Dr Exiled wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:36 pm
There clearly wasn't a plan to take over the government.
There was a plan to overturn the results of the general election using a challenge to the electoral college and alternate electors. There was a mob encouraged by Trump to go to the Capital, where he was supposed to join them, to stiffen the backbones of "weak Republicans". It wasn't a take over. It was a change from democratically elected republican government to authoritarian one-party rule by people who couldn't accept they lost an election.
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Re: Will the Republic as we know it end?

Post by Hawkeye »

The only police officer to die in the "deadly" Jan 6 protest was Officer Brian Sicknick and nobody knows exactly how he died. But they've admitted that it wasn't blunt force trauma from a fire extinguisher. The four other people who died were right wing Trump supporters, who according to the people on this board, deserved it. The idea that this was a pivotal insurrection/war in which the left took significant casualties property damage like the right did during the BLM summer of 2020 protests is just not true. And the Jan 6 protesters have been punished far more harshly than the BLM protesters for the same crimes thanks to our partisan political justice system.
The best part about this is waiting four years to see how all the crazy apocalyptic predictions made by the fear mongering idiots in Right Wing media turned out to be painfully wrong...Gasoline would hit $10/gallon. Hyperinflation would ensue.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Will the Republic as we know it end?

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Hawkeye wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:48 pm
The only police officer to die in the "deadly" Jan 6 protest was Officer Brian Sicknick and nobody knows exactly how he died. But they've admitted that it wasn't blunt force trauma from a fire extinguisher. The four other people who died were right wing Trump supporters, who according to the people on this board, deserved it. The idea that this was a pivotal insurrection/war in which the left took significant casualties property damage like the right did during the BLM summer of 2020 protests is just not true. And the Jan 6 protesters have been punished far more harshly than the BLM protesters for the same crimes thanks to our partisan political justice system.
Once again, Xanax doesn’t read, but just creates loopy straw man arguments. Re-posted here for his education:

Here are some BLM rioters being held accountable:

https://www.reuters.com/legal/legalindu ... reddit.com

I’m posting this as a resource for Xanax so he stops claiming BLM rioters were let off scot free by tEh LiBeRaLs.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
honorentheos
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Re: Will the Republic as we know it end?

Post by honorentheos »

Hawkeye wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:48 pm
The only police officer to die in the "deadly" Jan 6 protest was Officer Brian Sicknick and nobody knows exactly how he died. But they've admitted that it wasn't blunt force trauma from a fire extinguisher. The four other people who died were right wing Trump supporters, who according to the people on this board, deserved it. The idea that this was a pivotal insurrection/war in which the left took significant casualties property damage like the right did during the BLM summer of 2020 protests is just not true. And the Jan 6 protesters have been punished far more harshly than the BLM protesters for the same crimes thanks to our partisan political justice system.
Ajax, what happened on January 6, 2021 was an attempt to end Constitutional rule in favor of authoritarian one party rule. Everything you posted above is missing the central issue and what it means to dismiss the significance of that attempt.

You are a modern Tory.
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Doctor Steuss
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Re: Will the Republic as we know it end?

Post by Doctor Steuss »

Hawkeye wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:48 pm
And the Jan 6 protesters have been punished far more harshly than the BLM protesters for the same crimes thanks to our partisan political justice system.
You mean the partisan political justice system, wherein Biden's Justice Department has continued to bring charges against BLM protestors years after the fact? Or is this another instance, like where you claimed that the Republican Judge, appointed by a Republican Governor, was actually a Democrat when they approved a low bail amount?

Setting aside the false equivalency of people rioting against police brutality, and people rioting to overturn the Constitution... If you feel up to a game: You post a January 6th person sentenced with jail time, and I'll post a BLM person sentenced with jail time, and we'll see who runs out of names first. In fact, just to make it more fun, I'll post 2 to every 1.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Will the Republic as we know it end?

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

Doctor Steuss wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 6:14 pm
Hawkeye wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:48 pm
And the Jan 6 protesters have been punished far more harshly than the BLM protesters for the same crimes thanks to our partisan political justice system.
You mean the partisan political justice system, wherein Biden's Justice Department has continued to bring charges against BLM protestors years after the fact? Or is this another instance, like where you claimed that the Republican Judge, appointed by a Republican Governor, was actually a Democrat when they approved a low bail amount?

Setting aside the false equivalency of people rioting against police brutality, and people rioting to overturn the Constitution... If you feel up to a game: You post a January 6th person sentenced with jail time, and I'll post a BLM person sentenced with jail time, and we'll see who runs out of names first. In fact, just to make it more fun, I'll post 2 to every 1.
And that’s just federal prosecutions. At the state level thousands of those rioters were charged and prosecuted for their various crimes. Here in Utah, we sent a lot of those criminals to jail and prison for their crimes. We were pissed, and I’m happy to say our LiBeRaL DA didn’t cut them any slack.

You can protest, but when you start destroying private property, destroying public property, stealing, and hurting innocent people you gots to go. Conversely, if your sole intent is to sToP ThE sTeAl by literally trying to stop the electoral process and replace it with your own electors and cronies to keep an authoritarian in office, then damned c’mon. You gotta go to jail, brosef.

- Doc

eta: Ajax is a damned idiot, and continues to be a damned idiot.
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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canpakes
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Re: Will the Republic as we know it end?

Post by canpakes »

Dr Exiled wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 4:36 pm
The above isn't an insurrection, although the Jan 6 committee really tried to sell that hard and even hired a TV director to make it look more menacing. Protests, even misguided ones, aren't an insurrection, unless disagreement is somehow morphed into something different.
I’d like to see more of an argument from you along those lines as opposed to simple assertion. It seems plausible to define what happened as in insurrection, weak as it may have been:

“Rebellion, uprising, or insurrection is a refusal of obedience or order. It refers to the open resistance against the orders of an established authority.

A rebellion originates from a sentiment of indignation and disapproval of a situation and then manifests itself by the refusal to submit or to obey the authority responsible for this situation. Rebellion can be individual or collective, peaceful (civil disobedience, civil resistance, and nonviolent resistance) or violent (terrorism, sabotage and guerrilla warfare).” - - Wikipedia, everyone’s favorite quick’n’lazy armchair source for stuff

However, there were definitely violent clashes with police and that should be condemned. Sure, there is a continuum regarding behavior, but, as you point out, the protesters left eventually. There clearly wasn't a plan to take over the government. And afterward, Biden was officially elected by the electoral college. The constitution worked. There wasn't a plan by Trump to become a dictator or to remain in office. Trump left. He left kicking and screaming, but left nonetheless.
I don’t see that having a viable or proven plan to complete a takeover of power as part of the definition. Nevertheless, some groups appeared to have equipped themselves for a more serious outcome other than mere tourism. Do you disagree?

So, some of the questions I have are why did the capitol police let some of the protesters through?
Plausible reasons are given above. Think about how you would have reacted in the same situation.

Who opened the big doors from the inside?
Protesters. : D

Were there FBI informants mixed in the crowd?(the FBI director won't answer this question and some criminal defense attorneys were just informed, late, that there were FBI informants in the Proud Boys and another of the groups that were part of Jan 6)
What if there are FBI informants that infiltrated the Proud Boys, and then - to take that a step farther - were with that group on Jan 6? What conclusion does that lead to, for you? That they drove that group’s ideology and planning for that day? Or that they could have acted to help stop any action of the Proud Boys should they have taken things too far?

Infiltrating a group does not imply that the infiltrators are running the group. Do you disagree?

Why the refusal to have more security as Trump claims to have asked Nancy Pelosi to do?
I’m pretty sure that question has already been discussed a few times here. You’ll either accept what has been presented, or continue to ask that question as if to imply something.

Regardless, the question does not address the intent of the crowd, or change whether or not that crowd- or Trump - participated in an insurrection, right?
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: Will the Republic as we know it end?

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I don’t think these insurrection denialists also want to admit a degree of self-preservation played a role with the cops. If I have a thousand idiot qtard rednecks screaming bloody murder inches away from me, I’m going to effectuate a calm demeanor and placate them by telling them they’re amazing patriots. If that includes a selfie and a back pat so I can go home to see my wife tonight, then it is what it is. I can do math. 20 rounds in my crap Glock isn’t going to solve the situation, but it’s going to forfeit my life while making martyrs of these criminals. Not gonna do it.

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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canpakes
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Re: Will the Republic as we know it end?

Post by canpakes »

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote:
Thu Nov 17, 2022 7:04 pm
I don’t think these insurrection denialists also want to admit a degree of self-preservation played a role with the cops. If I have a thousand idiot qtard rednecks screaming bloody murder inches away from me, I’m going to effectuate a calm demeanor and placate them by telling them they’re amazing patriots. If that includes a selfie and a back pat so I can go home to see my wife tonight, then it is what it is. I can do math. 20 rounds in my crap Glock isn’t going to solve the situation, but it’s going to forfeit my life while making martyrs of these criminals. Not gonna do it.

- Doc
Exactly. And that was a point that I made a few posts ago, to DrE’s question. I’m betting that plenty of those officers considered that after watching the crowd pound on their co-workers with fire extinguishers, hockey sticks and flagpoles (flagpoles! Very patriotic!) that they actually preferred to make it home to their spouse and kids that evening rather than take a side trip to a hospital from trying to hold the crazies back.
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