DiscussMormonism.com

Doctor Steuss wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 30, 2022 4:05 pm

ajax18 wrote: ↑

Fri Dec 30, 2022 1:45 am

Even though it was the special counsel who brought the the bank fraud charges and not the banks? What exactly did this very expensive taxpayer funded partisan political Mueller investigation do to benefit America?

Ummm... Citizen's Bank was a co-conspirator, lol. That's laid out in the 32-page indictment where it documents how they doctored a financial statement for Manafort (and did such a bad job of it, that one employee co-conspirator sent it back to be redone cleaner saying "Looks Dr'd"). Let me guess, Manafort conveniently left out that part in his book. Citizen's Bank has been the subject of SEC, CFPB and FDIC investigations, fines, and charges for decades.

As just one example, in 2015 (y'know, before Mueller) after an investigation by the SEC, they were hit with about $35 million in penalties for stealing millions of dollars from customers from 2008-2013.

As I noted earlier, dishonest people are drawn to each other. Same goes for businesses.

Would you have been outraged if Manafort had said what Weissman wanted him to say on the witness stand against Trump in exchage for immunity as Gates had done?

If he were to have said stuff on the witness stand, under oath, that was untrue, I'd hope he'd be found out and charged accordingly.

If "what Weissman wanted him to say" is only coming from Manafort, I'd wager it's probably another self-serving lie. That's what unethical and dishonest people like him do. They lie. A lot.

Related to this defense of Manafort:

”The defence’s other main strategy was to play on the false narrative, encouraged by President Trump, that the Mueller investigation is a witch hunt. Manafort failed to switch the venue to a Republican city in Southern Virginia, but he succeeded in avoiding a consolidated trial in Washington, DC (which voted 93 per cent for Hillary Clinton). He gambled, correctly, that a jury pool in purple Northern Virginia would include a few Fox News viewers.

‘Typical DoJ prosecutors’ don’t prosecute crimes like these, insinuated defence attorney Richard Westling. No one cared about Manafort ‘until the special counsel showed up and started asking questions’.

‘What would be the motivation [for going after him]?’ he asked the jurors at closing. ‘I’ll leave you to determine what was behind that.’

The prosecutors objected and the judge gave the jurors a curative instruction. But the damage was done. In Waxman’s view, ‘That comment in closing was the most inflammatory, improper thing the defence could have said.’

After four days of deliberation, on 21 August, the jury convicted Manafort of eight counts and failed to reach a verdict on ten others. The jury agreed that Manafort was guilty on all five charges of tax evasion, one charge of failing to file a Foreign Bank Account Report (FBAR), and two charges of bank fraud. But the jury could not reach agreement on the Federal Savings Bank loans or on the remaining FBAR counts.

Eleven of the 12 jurors saw Manafort as guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt on all charges, according to a juror who spoke to the media. The questions the jury sent the judge during deliberations shed light on the holdout’s reasoning. On the FBAR counts, the holdout seemed to mistakenly believe that Manafort could evade reporting foreign accounts held in the name of a shell company even if he controlled the disbursements for his own benefit. As to the Federal Savings Bank charges, the holdout appeared to believe that it couldn’t be fraud if the CEO approved the loans with eyes wide open (for his own dubious reasons), after Manafort’s lies had been exposed. In fact, federal bank fraud encompasses attempted fraud.”

https://www.ibanet.org/article/E1C69E69 ... E6D65C769F

If "what Weissman wanted him to say" is only coming from Manafort, I'd wager it's probably another self-serving lie. That's what unethical and dishonest people like him do. They lie. A lot.

After reading Carter Page's take, I can't prove Manafort was innocent. But it sure seems like there's a two tiered system of justice in Washington that depends on which political party you belong to. I wish you would read Carter Pages book. There's a lot of examples of the FBI lying. If even a tenth of what Carter Page said were true, it'd still prove that the justice department is just a partisan political weapon of the DNC. Do you think Carter was lying about even 10% of it? I think he foolishly just insisted on telling the truth which is very dangerous in a place as unethical, biased, and dishonest as Washigton D.C. And yet somehow he came out unscathed and would have had a real chance of bringing Comey and the the special council to justice in a less partisan district with a jury pool that's not 96% Democrat.

ajax18 wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 31, 2022 7:25 pm

After reading Carter Page's take, I can't prove Manafort was innocent.

Apparently, the jury reached the same conclusion.

canpakes wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 31, 2022 11:29 pm

ajax18 wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 31, 2022 7:25 pm

After reading Carter Page's take, I can't prove Manafort was innocent.

Apparently, the jury reached the same conclusion.

Whatever happened to the standard of proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. I'm not limiting this criticism to Manafort's case. The idea that if you suspect two people of stealing and you tell one you'll let them get away with it if they testify against the other is just flat out wrong and immoral. To me this just doesn't smell like justice. In fact it stinks.

ajax18 wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 01, 2023 2:01 am

canpakes wrote: ↑

Sat Dec 31, 2022 11:29 pm

Apparently, the jury reached the same conclusion.

Whatever happened to the standard of proving guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.

Apparently, the jury reached exactly that conclusion.

I’m wondering if Ajax’s recent posts on Manafort and Paige aren’t evidence that in four short years political corruption hasn’t been mainstreamed into the Republican Party. Well, at least when the corrupt actors are Republicans. Political corruption hasn’t, to date, been accepted as routine like it has in some countries. Bribes and payoffs at all levels of government are simply part of the cost of doing business in some countries, even democracies. Ajax has turned criminal prosecution of political corruption into political persecution, at least when the criminal is on his team. Jared Kushner, who had a helluva time getting a security clearance, ended up getting a miraculous loan to bail out his failing family business and netted 2B from Saudis after being in charge of Middle East peace. Trump himself siphoned off millions in taxpayer funds into his businesses and pockets. But Ajax doesn’t care.

One of Trump’s most enduring legacies may be mainstreaming political corruption into the highest levels of the federal government. At least when the corrupt actors are Republicans.

Res Ipsa wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 01, 2023 9:00 pm

I’m wondering if Ajax’s recent posts on Manafort and Paige aren’t evidence that in four short years political corruption hasn’t been mainstreamed into the Republican Party. Well, at least when the corrupt actors are Republicans. Political corruption hasn’t, to date, been accepted as routine like it has in some countries. Bribes and payoffs at all levels of government are simply part of the cost of doing business in some countries, even democracies. Ajax has turned criminal prosecution of political corruption into political persecution, at least when the criminal is on his team. Jared Kushner, who had a helluva time getting a security clearance, ended up getting a miraculous loan to bail out his failing family business and netted 2B from Saudis after being in charge of Middle East peace. Trump himself siphoned off millions in taxpayer funds into his businesses and pockets. But Ajax doesn’t care.

One of Trump’s most enduring legacies may be mainstreaming political corruption into the highest levels of the federal government. At least when the corrupt actors are Republicans.

Remember when Republicans didn’t care for the Saudis, what with them plowing airplanes into the Twin Towers and all? Remember when MAGAs screamed bloody murder about Hunter Biden getting $$ out of Ukrainians?

Not a fuckin’ PEEP outta ‘em about the Trump family’s grifts. That, among a thousand other hypocrisies, ought to tell you all you need to know about their hand wringing and “patriotism”.

- Doc

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 01, 2023 9:08 pm

Res Ipsa wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 01, 2023 9:00 pm

Trump himself siphoned off millions in taxpayer funds into his businesses and pockets. But Ajax doesn’t care.

One of Trump’s most enduring legacies may be mainstreaming political corruption into the highest levels of the federal government. At least when the corrupt actors are Republicans.

Not a fuckin’ PEEP outta ‘em about the Trump family’s grifts. That, among a thousand other hypocrisies, ought to tell you all you need to know about their hand wringing and “patriotism”.

Yep.



ajax, tell me again about Hunter Biden.

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 01, 2023 9:08 pm

Res Ipsa wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 01, 2023 9:00 pm

I’m wondering if Ajax’s recent posts on Manafort and Paige aren’t evidence that in four short years political corruption hasn’t been mainstreamed into the Republican Party. Well, at least when the corrupt actors are Republicans. Political corruption hasn’t, to date, been accepted as routine like it has in some countries. Bribes and payoffs at all levels of government are simply part of the cost of doing business in some countries, even democracies. Ajax has turned criminal prosecution of political corruption into political persecution, at least when the criminal is on his team. Jared Kushner, who had a helluva time getting a security clearance, ended up getting a miraculous loan to bail out his failing family business and netted 2B from Saudis after being in charge of Middle East peace. Trump himself siphoned off millions in taxpayer funds into his businesses and pockets. But Ajax doesn’t care.

One of Trump’s most enduring legacies may be mainstreaming political corruption into the highest levels of the federal government. At least when the corrupt actors are Republicans.

Remember when Republicans didn’t care for the Saudis, what with them plowing airplanes into the Twin Towers and all? Remember when MAGAs screamed bloody murder about Hunter Biden getting $$ out of Ukrainians?

Not a fuckin’ PEEP outta ‘em about the Trump family’s grifts. That, among a thousand other hypocrisies, ought to tell you all you need to know about their hand wringing and “patriotism”.

- Doc

I don’t think it’s about patriotism. Ajax isn’t a patriot — he doesn’t consider himself an American. Beginning with Gingrich and going forward, it’s been all about anger, resentment and winning at all costs. That’s the only consistent principle in the Republican Party over the last 40 years — whatever it takes to win. January 6 was most extreme effort yet. If they can’t win, too many are willing to go full on Steve Bannon and burn it all to the ground.

Res Ipsa wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 01, 2023 9:49 pm

Doctor CamNC4Me wrote: ↑

Sun Jan 01, 2023 9:08 pm

Remember when Republicans didn’t care for the Saudis, what with them plowing airplanes into the Twin Towers and all? Remember when MAGAs screamed bloody murder about Hunter Biden getting $$ out of Ukrainians?

Not a fuckin’ PEEP outta ‘em about the Trump family’s grifts. That, among a thousand other hypocrisies, ought to tell you all you need to know about their hand wringing and “patriotism”.

- Doc

I don’t think it’s about patriotism. Ajax isn’t a patriot — he doesn’t consider himself an American. Beginning with Gingrich and going forward, it’s been all about anger, resentment and winning at all costs. That’s the only consistent principle in the Republican Party over the last 40 years — whatever it takes to win. January 6 was most extreme effort yet. If they can’t win, too many are willing to go full on Steve Bannon and burn it all to the ground.

No we leave the burning it to the ground to BLM. They've done that all for us. No need to even strike a match.