O Come O Come Emmanuel

[Moksha]

It is a beautiful song. I've liked it ever since I heard a young Peter, Paul, and Mary sing it.

[Everybody Wang Chung]

Believing in Biblical Christianity is one thing, but believing in Mormonism requires you to believe in a whole other level of crazy.
In Mormonism you have to wonder if everything in the Triple Combination is made up, except those parts of the Doctrine & Covenants that generally have historical support. In Biblical Christianity you have to wonder if everything in the Bible is made up, except those parts of the late Old Testament and the late New Testament that generally have historical support. What's the difference? Sure there's good evidence that King David of the books of Samuel actually existed. There's also good evidence that Joseph Smith of the Doctrine & Covenants actually existed. Did Joseph Smith actually see God the Father and Jesus Christ? Did he actually take the golden plates out of Hill Cumorah? Who knows? I could also ask, did David actually kill a giant named Goliath? Was David actually secretly annointed king by the prophet Samuel? Who knows? Perhaps someone could put together an exhaustive list of all the doubtful claims a Latter-day Saint has to believe in, and also an exhaustive list of all the doubtful claims a Biblical Christian has to believe in, and then we'll see which list is less credible than the other. But judging on what I can see, I know of no reason to believe Biblical Christianity is more likely to be the more credible of the two.
Furthermore, all the Biblical Christians seem to be saying is that someone very powerful, who claims to be God, inspired them and allegedly rose Jesus from the dead. That same powerful alleged deity claims to have enough power to annihilate souls, but chooses to let some souls suffer extreme agony for the rest of eternity instead. I'll take the Latter-day Saint deity (regardless of how likely He is to exist) over that other deity any day of the week.

Kevin,

Don't Mormons believe in the Bible too? So, in addition to all the many issues you outlined that are contained in the Bible, Mormons also have to believe in the Book of Abraham, Jaredites, Nephites, Lamanites, pre-Columbian horses, immortal 3 Nephites, Kolob getting its light from the sun, Golden Plates, seer stones, etc., etc.

No?

[KevinSim]

Quote the scripture you're referring to. There's only one verse in Isaiah 7 that contains the prophecy you refer to?

Oh sorry, Jersey Girl, I thought I had quoted it. Matthew 1:21-23 quotes Isaiah 7:14. The part of Isaiah 7 that makes it clear that 7:14 does not refer to a birth 700 years later is verses 1-16.

[Jersey Girl]

Quote the scripture you're referring to. There's only one verse in Isaiah 7 that contains the prophecy you refer to?

Oh sorry, Jersey Girl, I thought I had quoted it. Matthew 1:21-23 quotes Isaiah 7:14. The part of Isaiah 7 that makes it clear that 7:14 does not refer to a birth 700 years later is verses 1-16.

Thanks. When might I expect you to quote the scripture you're referring to in the OP?

[Alphus and Omegus]

Quote the scripture you're referring to. There's only one verse in Isaiah 7 that contains the prophecy you refer to?

Oh sorry, Jersey Girl, I thought I had quoted it. Matthew 1:21-23 quotes Isaiah 7:14. The part of Isaiah 7 that makes it clear that 7:14 does not refer to a birth 700 years later is verses 1-16.

The doctrine you are feeling discomfited by here is called "supercessionism," and it's the concept that God replaced the Israelites with Christians in his eyes after the Jews rejected Jesus. It can indeed be a poisonous doctrine that has led people to justify murders and other hate crimes. But on the other hand, I don't think the idea of Christians as sort of joint heirs to God's divine favor is anti-Semitic. So it depends on how one interprets the doctrine. The chant "Veni, veni, Emmanuel" is part of a Christian chant and vocal tradition that integrates the Jewish Psalms so I do not personally think it can be credibly said to be anti-Semitic.

I agree with your larger point that there are a lot of serious problems with Christianity. The New Testament repeatedly quotes the Hebrew Bible out of context in a dishonest manner. Modern-day Christians also are totally ignorant that the earliest practitioners of their faith did not share many of the doctrines that are widely believed in today, such as the human/superhuman of Jesus, the trinity, the universality or necessity of atonement, and literally hundreds of other things.

There's a great book called "Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew," by Bart Ehrman which gets into the history in an approachable way. You can read it free online here:

https://archive.org/details/lost-christ ... 3/mode/2up

(My biggest complaint with Christian theology is its insistence that adherents of all other religions go to hell. It's a monstrous doctrine in my opinion. And it is plainly and repeatedly stated in the New Testament.)

While Christianity has many problems of this nature, there are even more problems with the origins of Judaism as well, including the fact that multiple gods are present in the text specifically referenced by different names ("El") and ("Yahweh") as well as the fact that both of these gods were members of the Canaanite pantheon, along with Asherah, the wife of God. She is repeatedly mentioned in the Bible as a goddess who was worshipped by Israelites.

In a lot of ways, Mormonism's theology tries to fix some of the inconsistencies of traditional 19th century Christianity. But its separate miraculous claims get in the way of these fixes given their non-credible messengers and supposed witnesses.

[Chap]

The fact that modern Christians (who trace their origins back to a group of first-century Jews) disagree with modern religious Jews about the interpretation of Prophecies in the Old Testament does not mean, in itself, that modern Christians are "anti-semitic".

Newsflash: Jewish people do not tend to think that anyone who disagrees with them is anti-semitic. Odd, isn't it?

[Moksha]

The "Saints" know that the truest version of O Come O Come Emmanuel was written in Adamic because it contains the original prayer for moisture.

[KevinSim]

I am a devout Latter-day Saint, and yet I do have doubts about what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches.

Like what, specifically?

I sometimes doubt that anything in the Book of Mormon is true, or anything in the Book of Abraham. I sometimes wonder if Joseph Smith made up the visit with God the Father and Jesus. Things like that.

[KevinSim]

Oh sorry, Jersey Girl, I thought I had quoted it. Matthew 1:21-23 quotes Isaiah 7:14. The part of Isaiah 7 that makes it clear that 7:14 does not refer to a birth 700 years later is verses 1-16.

Thanks. When might I expect you to quote the scripture you're referring to in the OP?

Ack! I misunderstood you. Isaiah 7:14 says:

Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

Matthew 1:21-23 says:

And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Note that the Isaiah passage contains a translation error. The original Hebrew used the word almah, which doesn't mean virgin. Also, note that Mary called her son's name Jesus, not Immanuel. Finally, read Isaiah 7:1-16 and note that it's not a prophecy about a virgin birth seven hundred years in the future, but rather about the demise of the kings of Syria and Israel in the space of time it would take for the baby Immanuel to learn to distinguish between good and evil. In other words, Immanuel and Ahaz coexisted.

[KevinSim]

In modern Mormonism is Israel today the church or Judaism?

Neither. When Russell Nelson talks about gathering Israel he's referring to much more than the church, and quite a few more tribes than are made up by Judaism.