O Come O Come Emmanuel

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KevinSim
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O Come O Come Emmanuel

Post by KevinSim »

I believe it is possible to be devout and still have doubts. I am a devout Latter-day Saint, and yet I do have doubts about what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches. I have as many doubts about what Biblical Christianity teaches. Last month my wife told me that one of her favorite Christmas songs is "O Come O Come Emmanuel." I haven't told her yet, but that song really bugs me. It appears to endorse what the author of Matthew's Gospel said in Matthew 1:21-23, that the birth of Jesus fulfilled the prophecy in Isaiah 7:14. Now I've read the entire chapter of Isaiah 7, and I'd be tempted to say that there isn't a prophecy less fulfilled by an event than Isaiah 7:14 is by the birth of Jesus. It's very clear to me that that author is fraudulently hijacking a Jewish prophecy to make Christianity look good.
But before talking to my wife about this, I decided to look closely at just what about "O Come O Come Emmanuel" really rubs me the wrong way. And the conclusion I came to was because I was afraid that it bordered on being anti-Semitic. I decided that if I concluded it was anti-Semitic, then I'd bring it up with my wife. If it wasn't, then I'd let her have the song she likes and never say anything to her about it. So what does everybody here think? Is "O Come O Come Emmanuel" anti-Semitic or isn't it?
Last edited by KevinSim on Fri Jan 06, 2023 3:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Everybody Wang Chung
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Re: O Come O Come Emmanuel

Post by Everybody Wang Chung »

KevinSim wrote:I have as many doubts about what Bublical Christianity teaches.
Really? In Biblical Christianity, you don't have to believe in the Book of Abraham, Jaredites, Nephites, Lamanites, pre-Columbian horses, immortal 3 Nephites, Kolob getting its light from the sun, Golden Plates, seer stones, etc., etc.

Believing in Biblical Christianity is one thing, but believing in Mormonism requires you to believe in a whole other level of crazy.
Last edited by Everybody Wang Chung on Fri Jan 06, 2023 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Doctor CamNC4Me
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Re: O Come O Come Emmanuel

Post by Doctor CamNC4Me »

KevinSim wrote:
Fri Jan 06, 2023 2:42 am
I am a devout Latter-day Saint, and yet I do have doubts about what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches.
Like what, specifically?

- Doc
Hugh Nibley claimed he bumped into Adolf Hitler, Albert Einstein, Winston Churchill, Gertrude Stein, and the Grand Duke Vladimir Romanoff. Dishonesty is baked into Mormonism.
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Jersey Girl
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Re: O Come O Come Emmanuel

Post by Jersey Girl »

Quote the scripture you're referring to. There's only one verse in Isaiah 7 that contains the prophecy you refer to?
We only get stronger when we are lifting something that is heavier than what we are used to. ~ KF

Slava Ukraini!
honorentheos
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Re: O Come O Come Emmanuel

Post by honorentheos »

In modern Mormonism is Israel today the church or Judaism?
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Some Schmo
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Re: O Come O Come Emmanuel

Post by Some Schmo »

Doubt is the gateway to enlightenment.
Religion is for people whose existential fear is greater than their common sense.

The god idea is popular with desperate people.
honorentheos
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Re: O Come O Come Emmanuel

Post by honorentheos »

To be direct, the narrative shift from captive Israel being literally the kingdom of Israel in exile to representing the fallen state of humankind is inherent to Christianity. It's doubly so in Mormonism that proclaims the adoption of the Saints into Israel as literal. So if that appropriation in the song is anti-Semitic, Mormonism is anti-Semitic.
msnobody
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Re: O Come O Come Emmanuel

Post by msnobody »

KevinSim wrote:
Fri Jan 06, 2023 2:42 am
I believe it is possible to be devout and still have doubts. I am a devout Latter-day Saint, and yet I do have doubts about what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches. I have as many doubts about what Biblical Christianity teaches. Last month my wife told me that one of her favorite Christmas songs is "O Come O Come Emmanuel." I haven't told her yet, but that song really bugs me. It appears to endorse what the author of Matthew's Gospel said in Matthew 1:21-23, that the birth of Jesus fulfilled the prophecy in Isaiah 7:14. Now I've read the entire chapter of Isaiah 7, and I'd be tempted to say that there isn't a prophecy less fulfilled by an event than Isaiah 7:14 is by the birth of Jesus. It's very clear to me that that author is fraudulently hijacking a Jewish prophecy to make Christianity look good.
But before talking to my wife about this, I decided to look closely at just what about "O Come O Come Emmanuel" really rubs me the wrong way. And the conclusion I came to was because I was afraid that it bordered on being anti-Semitic. I decided that if I concluded it was anti-Semitic, then I'd bring it up with my wife. If it wasn't, then I'd let her have the song she likes and never say anything to her about it. So what does everybody here think? Is "O Come O Come Emmanuel" anti-Semitic or isn't it?
I’m with your wife on this one. I’ve always kind of liked it myself. I don’t see it as anti-Semitic.
The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession... The LORD set his love on you and chose you... The LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery. Deut. 7
honorentheos
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Re: O Come O Come Emmanuel

Post by honorentheos »

msnobody wrote:
Fri Jan 06, 2023 4:29 am
KevinSim wrote:
Fri Jan 06, 2023 2:42 am
I believe it is possible to be devout and still have doubts. I am a devout Latter-day Saint, and yet I do have doubts about what the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints teaches. I have as many doubts about what Biblical Christianity teaches. Last month my wife told me that one of her favorite Christmas songs is "O Come O Come Emmanuel." I haven't told her yet, but that song really bugs me. It appears to endorse what the author of Matthew's Gospel said in Matthew 1:21-23, that the birth of Jesus fulfilled the prophecy in Isaiah 7:14. Now I've read the entire chapter of Isaiah 7, and I'd be tempted to say that there isn't a prophecy less fulfilled by an event than Isaiah 7:14 is by the birth of Jesus. It's very clear to me that that author is fraudulently hijacking a Jewish prophecy to make Christianity look good.
But before talking to my wife about this, I decided to look closely at just what about "O Come O Come Emmanuel" really rubs me the wrong way. And the conclusion I came to was because I was afraid that it bordered on being anti-Semitic. I decided that if I concluded it was anti-Semitic, then I'd bring it up with my wife. If it wasn't, then I'd let her have the song she likes and never say anything to her about it. So what does everybody here think? Is "O Come O Come Emmanuel" anti-Semitic or isn't it?
I’m with your wife on this one. I’ve always kind of liked it myself. I don’t see it as anti-Semitic.
Out of curiosity do you celebrate Advent as part of your tradition? To my mind, there is something about the hymn that evokes the first week that I think Mormon culture does not include in it's December reflections.
KevinSim
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Re: O Come O Come Emmanuel

Post by KevinSim »

Everybody Wang Chung wrote:
Fri Jan 06, 2023 2:59 am
KevinSim wrote:I have as many doubts about what Bublical Christianity teaches.
Really?
Really, Everybody WC.
Everybody Wang Chung wrote:In Biblical Christianity, you don't have to believe in the Book of Abraham, Jaredites, Nephites, Lamanites, pre-Columbian horses, immortal 3 Nephites, Kolob getting its light from the sun, Golden Plates, seer stones, etc., etc.

Believing in Biblical Christianity is one thing, but believing in Mormonism requires you to believe in a whole other level of crazy.
In Mormonism you have to wonder if everything in the Triple Combination is made up, except those parts of the Doctrine & Covenants that generally have historical support. In Biblical Christianity you have to wonder if everything in the Bible is made up, except those parts of the late Old Testament and the late New Testament that generally have historical support. What's the difference? Sure there's good evidence that King David of the books of Samuel actually existed. There's also good evidence that Joseph Smith of the Doctrine & Covenants actually existed. Did Joseph Smith actually see God the Father and Jesus Christ? Did he actually take the golden plates out of Hill Cumorah? Who knows? I could also ask, did David actually kill a giant named Goliath? Was David actually secretly annointed king by the prophet Samuel? Who knows? Perhaps someone could put together an exhaustive list of all the doubtful claims a Latter-day Saint has to believe in, and also an exhaustive list of all the doubtful claims a Biblical Christian has to believe in, and then we'll see which list is less credible than the other. But judging on what I can see, I know of no reason to believe Biblical Christianity is more likely to be the more credible of the two.
Furthermore, all the Biblical Christians seem to be saying is that someone very powerful, who claims to be God, inspired them and allegedly rose Jesus from the dead. That same powerful alleged deity claims to have enough power to annihilate souls, but chooses to let some souls suffer extreme agony for the rest of eternity instead. I'll take the Latter-day Saint deity (regardless of how likely He is to exist) over that other deity any day of the week.
Last edited by KevinSim on Fri Jan 06, 2023 4:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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