O Come O Come Emmanuel

[KevinSim]

Doubt is the gateway to enlightenment.

I'm glad to hear that!

[Doctor CamNC4Me]

Like what, specifically?

I sometimes doubt that anything in the Book of Mormon is true, or anything in the Book of Abraham. I sometimes wonder if Joseph Smith made up the visit with God the Father and Jesus. Things like that.

Ah, thanks. I recommend watching this deep dive series on the Book of Abraham:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6TgWvGUd7ns

Even though I thought I had a fairly good take on the Book of Abraham, I realized I didn’t know nuthin’. I believe it’s a three-part series, so very thorough.

- Doc

[honorentheos]

In modern Mormonism is Israel today the church or Judaism?

Neither. When Russell Nelson talks about gathering Israel he's referring to much more than the church, and quite a few more tribes than are made up by Judaism.

Yeah...he's referring to the Church. Gathering Israel is a euphemism for baptizing. The idea within the church regarding Judah as long as I can remember has been the Jews will recognize Jesus as the Messiah at the battle of Armageddon and the last to be gathered. Israel as spoken of in the hymn is about the people of God alone in the world looking to the promise of being a chosen people for comfort. Whether that is the captivity and lost of Isaiah, the post-temple Jews, Christians of the new covenant, latter-day saints, or what have you. The concept is about a relationship between God, his people, and the world.

[huckelberry]

Oh sorry, Jersey Girl, I thought I had quoted it. Matthew 1:21-23 quotes Isaiah 7:14. The part of Isaiah 7 that makes it clear that 7:14 does not refer to a birth 700 years later is verses 1-16.

The doctrine you are feeling discomfited by here is called "supercessionism," and it's the concept that God replaced the Israelites with Christians in his eyes after the Jews rejected Jesus. It can indeed be a poisonous doctrine that has led people to justify murders and other hate crimes. But on the other hand, I don't think the idea of Christians as sort of joint heirs to God's divine favor is anti-Semitic. So it depends on how one interprets the doctrine. The chant "Veni, veni, Emmanuel" is part of a Christian chant and vocal tradition that integrates the Jewish Psalms so I do not personally think it can be credibly said to be anti-Semitic.

I agree with your larger point that there are a lot of serious problems with Christianity. The New Testament repeatedly quotes the Hebrew Bible out of context in a dishonest manner. Modern-day Christians also are totally ignorant that the earliest practitioners of their faith did not share many of the doctrines that are widely believed in today, such as the human/superhuman of Jesus, the trinity, the universality or necessity of atonement, and literally hundreds of other things.

There's a great book called "Lost Christianities: The Battles for Scripture and the Faiths We Never Knew," by Bart Ehrman which gets into the history in an approachable way. You can read it free online here:

https://archive.org/details/lost-christ ... 3/mode/2up

(My biggest complaint with Christian theology is its insistence that adherents of all other religions go to hell. It's a monstrous doctrine in my opinion. And it is plainly and repeatedly stated in the New Testament.)

While Christianity has many problems of this nature, there are even more problems with the origins of Judaism as well, including the fact that multiple gods are present in the text specifically referenced by different names ("El") and ("Yahweh") as well as the fact that both of these gods were members of the Canaanite pantheon, along with Asherah, the wife of God. She is repeatedly mentioned in the Bible as a goddess who was worshipped by Israelites.

In a lot of ways, Mormonism's theology tries to fix some of the inconsistencies of traditional 19th century Christianity. But its separate miraculous claims get in the way of these fixes given their non-credible messengers and supposed witnesses.

Alphus, I think you make a good comments as to why the passage in question is not antisemitic. As well the song being discussed refers to the enslaved condition of all humanity not just Jews.

As a Biblical Christian I do not believe people of other faiths all go to hell. I do not really see that demanded by the New Testament texts but people have inclined to read some of it that way. That view certainly became traditional.

It is true that there are loose reading of scripture in the New Testament , this Matthew text being an example. But in a way it is poor reading of Matthew which contributes. People hope for some proof text in Isaiah a prediction proving who Jesus is. Of course there is no such thing. Matthew uses the old text to identify what he believes Jesus is and the hope involved. Isaiah was not intending a prediction about Jesus.

It is a bit of a surprise what things you see as weakening Judism. I do not see any of that as a problem, I do see the idea of destroying all the Canaanites as a real problem.( I remain uncertain how much difference it makes that in fact that genocide did not happen.)

[Alphus and Omegus]

While Christianity has many problems of this nature, there are even more problems with the origins of Judaism as well, including the fact that multiple gods are present in the text specifically referenced by different names ("El") and ("Yahweh") as well as the fact that both of these gods were members of the Canaanite pantheon, along with Asherah, the wife of God. She is repeatedly mentioned in the Bible as a goddess who was worshipped by Israelites.

It is a bit of a surprise what things you see as weakening Judism. I do not see any of that as a problem, I do see the idea of destroying all the Canaanites as a real problem.( I remain uncertain how much difference it makes that in fact that genocide did not happen.)

I didn't want to get to into that Judaism discussion in my reply but basically, the monotheistic religion that we have today is a very obvious descendant of a pagan faith but no one in the Bible bothered to mention this fact. And in fact, they just pretend the pagan Judaism didn't even happen at all. El and Yahweh are two different beings, but they are treated as if they were one in the Bible's totalitarian rewrite of history.

The stories of Joshua and the Judges being instructed to kill neighboring Canaanites don't appear to reflect real history, but they did serve to create a tradition of divinely sanctioned genocides which do occur later in the somewhat more historical narratives of Kings and Chronicles.

In those books, the violence and lies wielded against Judaic adherents of Canaanite deities, including El and Jehovah's wife Asherah, are really horrifying once you realize they are evident in the text.

The monotheistic Israelites repeatedly tried to totally kill off Baal and Asherah worshipers, even though Baal and Yahweh are basically the same being, just with different names.

One thing I will give at least some Mormons credit for is that they do recognize the importance of preserving the memory of God's wife, Asherah, and her worship tradition which was so violently extinguished.

[KevinSim]

I’m with your wife on this one. I’ve always kind of liked it myself. I don’t see it as anti-Semitic.

Out of curiosity do you celebrate Advent as part of your tradition? To my mind, there is something about the hymn that evokes the first week that I think Mormon culture does not include in it's December reflections.

Honorentheos, are you asking this question of MsNobody or me?

[honorentheos]

Out of curiosity do you celebrate Advent as part of your tradition? To my mind, there is something about the hymn that evokes the first week that I think Mormon culture does not include in it's December reflections.

Honorentheos, are you asking this question of MsNobody or me?

Msnobody who I quoted. Mormons don't observe Advent and your argument against the song in the OP made it clear you don't for personal worship.

My questions/comments to you relate to the way the concept of Israel is narratively about God's chosen, not Jewish people. I don't think a person could really see the song as anti-Semitic and also have an understanding of that narrative relational language.

[KevinSim]

Don't Mormons believe in the Bible too? So, in addition to all the many issues you outlined that are contained in the Bible, Mormons also have to believe in the Book of Abraham, Jaredites, Nephites, Lamanites, pre-Columbian horses, immortal 3 Nephites, Kolob getting its light from the sun, Golden Plates, seer stones, etc., etc.

No?

Everybody Wang Chung, you're absolutely right, and therefore it's clear to me that I made a very poor choice of words. Instead of saying what doubtful things a Latter-day Saint has to believe is roughly equivalent to those doubtful things a Biblical Christian has to believe, I should have said what doubtful things a Latter-day Saint has to believe specific to Mormonism is roughly equivalent. But still, I don't think that makes Biblical Christianity more credible than Mormonism. Is it harder to believe in two talking snakes than it is to believe in one? To believe in two talking donkeys than it is to believe in one?

[KevinSim]

(My biggest complaint with Christian theology is its insistence that adherents of all other religions go to hell. It's a monstrous doctrine in my opinion. And it is plainly and repeatedly stated in the New Testament.)

My opinion is also that it is a monstrous doctrine, especially the part that has hell's residents suffering there forever. Nobody deserves to suffer that kind of agony forever.

[KevinSim]

Newsflash: Jewish people do not tend to think that anyone who disagrees with them is anti-semitic. Odd, isn't it?

How very Christian of them!